Subject: [removed] Digest V2002 #202
From: "OldRadio Mailing Lists" <[removed]@[removed];
Date: 6/4/2002 9:14 AM

To: <[removed]@[removed];

    ------------------------------

                                The Old-Time Radio Digest!
                                  Volume 2002 : Issue 202
                             A Part of the [removed]!
                                     ISSN: 1533-9289

                                     Today's Topics:

      Re: MP3s, distributors, etc.          [ Timothy Clough <timothy@[removed]; ]
      howard McNear                         [ BrianWest2@[removed] ]
      re: mp3 - free for all etc            [ "Doug Leary" <doug@[removed]; ]
      A legal question                      [ "david rogers" <david_rogers@hotmai ]
      great radio voices                    [ "Robert Angus" <rangus02@[removed]; ]
      Mp3's: Anti-capitalist Threat or Hig  [ John Mayer <mayer@[removed]; ]
      The good side of mp3                  [ Tony Baechler <tony@[removed]; ]
      Today in radio history                [ Joe Mackey <joemackey108@[removed] ]
      Radio actors to TV                    [ Herb Harrison <herbop@[removed] ]
      Howard McNear on TV                   [ Herb Harrison <herbop@[removed] ]
      Re: Dragnet's Christmas altar-boy     [ Derek Tague <derek@[removed]; ]
      Father Knows Best                     [ Ivan G Shreve Jr <iscreve@[removed] ]
      The Awesome Aussie                    [ hal stone <dualxtwo@[removed]; ]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 22:16:16 -0400
    From: Timothy Clough <timothy@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Re: MP3s, distributors, etc.

    I was wondering what distributors, clubs, etc., thought of the
    following:

    One of the sponsors of [removed] (it's easy to figure out
    which one) sells MP3 CD collections of various series, that according to
    the ad, have been recorded from his own personal collection of
    reel-to-reels, not downloads. For the most part, you would buy a
    complete series (or as complete as his collection of reel-to-reels) at a
    time, at $[removed] per CD, with as many CDs as it takes for the entire
    series.

    On the one hand, this looks like just another, valid dealer, just
    selling in a different format, although at a lower cost per episode. On
    the other hand, the potential for abuse from a customer who then sends
    them over the Internet/Usenet, is also there. What do the more
    traditional dealers think of this setup?

    Personally, I'm much fussier about the quality of sound for others and
    future generations than I am about what I listen to myself--as long as
    it's reasonable, I generally don't mind listening to it. This one of the
    main reasons why I don't like to trade much--my cassette copier is a
    dual-cassette boombox, and my cassette to CD copier is my boombox
    connected to my computer. If I got MP3s from this dealer, I'm sure I
    wouldn't want to trade them either, at least in part so that the
    circulating copies don't get contaminated. Also, I would probably only
    buy long-term, (almost) complete series, and leave the rest to SPERDVAC
    (and other clubs if I join them) and more traditional dealers. (Being on
    a tight budget is one reason I find this dealer attractive.)

    Timothy Clough

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 22:16:29 -0400
    From: BrianWest2@[removed]
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  howard McNear

    I strongly disagree with the writer who dissed Howard. I've seen him in a
    number of things and he always brought a smile to my face.

    Also, as to the question of great radio voices you've got to like William
    Conrad.

    westy

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 23:31:30 -0400
    From: "Doug Leary" <doug@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  re: mp3 - free for all etc

    It's been interesting reading this thread for a while. Coexistence of legal
    and illegal copies has always been a fact of life. I'm not against people
    making money, but in the commercial world the more profitable items are
    available and the less profitable items aren't. Inner Sanctum has always
    been around, but how many OTR catalogs include Life with Luigi? If OTR
    becomes rigidly controlled and licensed in the name of providing business
    opportunity, we may see plenty may of high-quality, expensively packaged
    copies of Gildersleeve and Fibber McGee, but for the really obscure, unusual
    items we will continue to rely on illegal traders who will continue to
    operate as long as they don't get thrown in jail. I've come to realize that
    that's just the way the system works, and moralizing about it is somewhat
    unproductive.

    Doug Leary

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 01:25:58 -0400
    From: "david rogers" <david_rogers@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  A legal question

    I have a legal question arising from Jim Widner's letter where he mentioned
    "legal battles" and "controlled memberships".  Assuming that we are not
    discussing copyright - I think the dealers involved do not own the
    copyrights and seem not to have spent any money in the actual production of
    the OTR shows involved - what legal claim does a dealer have to control
    something that they have in their possession and to dictate what a client
    does with something that they purchase from the dealer. Is it legally
    possible to take something that does not seem to be within copyright and
    then under the guise of having spent money on the "product" then try to
    establish some legal claim and rights.
    I realise that if their is any response to this it will come from North
    America, where the law may be different to other parts of the world, but I
    would be interested to find out.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 01:26:09 -0400
    From: "Robert Angus" <rangus02@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  great radio voices
    X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative
    X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain

    Funny that so far, nobody's mentioned my personal favorite, the late great Ed
    Begley.  In the 1940s, he did everything from cops to crooks, character roles
    to principals, high drama to low comedy.

      *** This message was altered by the server, and may not appear ***
      ***                  as the sender intended.                   ***

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:04:37 -0400
    From: John Mayer <mayer@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Mp3's: Anti-capitalist Threat or
     High-compression Menace?

    Ga6string@[removed] wrote:

>     Included in my OTR programs are quite a few old Radio Yesteryear
>     "custom tapes," purchased at $12/hour, including a few shows that apparently
>     aren't in circulation, and certainly are not available via Radio Spirits'
>     very limited custom tape service. (One would presume that everything RYY had
>     would now be available from RS, but it is not, sadly.)

    Which belies, I'd say, the notion that the profit motive will keep shows
    in circulation. I know that John Stossel's _Greed is Good_ special
    demonstrated that the Free Enterprise System, driven by the powerful
    engine of Selfishness, will ultimately work to the best interests of all
    of humanity (he says Ivan Boesky [or was it Marvin Milchen?] did more
    good that Mother Theresa), but, since Enron, I begin to have doubts. OTR
    purveyors who care nothing about the shows except for their potential to
    produce profit are likely, as they gain control of shows that, in the
    past, were freely exchanged by ardent collectors, to cease production of
    packages of shows that don't have wide popularity. And they're not going
    to give them away out of the goodness of their corporate hearts; if no
    interested parties ante up, they'll just sit on them. As commercial
    interests begin to control OTR properties the number of shows in
    circulation is likely to decrease, not increase.

    Jim Widner <jwidner@[removed]; wrote, on the same topic:

>     I will be the first to admit that I am listening to more otr since I began
>     listening

    Like myself, largely because there is so much more available now than
    the few Radio Yesteryear tapes we used to find in truck stops.

>     I do not agree ...that all otr should be free.

    Never? Why not; that is, after all, the reason that copyrights are not
    infinite (despite the efforts of our legislators to change that for the
    benefit of much bigger corporations than Mediabay): copyright is
    intended to promote the public good by encouraging creativity and
    innovation. Once the creator has gotten his or her due, the intellectual
    property becomes the property of all mankind, to maximize the public
    good. Isn't it a good thing that any municipal orchestra, high school
    marching band or experimental rock band can choose to play Beethoven's
    _Emperor Concerto_ without negotiating with Beethoven Properties, Inc.

>     While I have some issues with Mediabay's Radio Spirits, I do understand
>     their desire to protect their investment in licenses, cost of production
>     and marketing.

    Their costs of production and marketing are irrelevant if the same show
    is available elsewhere for free; they are, presumably, producing an
    attractive package with an informative insert so that you will find
    their product desirable and buy from them, once you've been made aware
    of it by their marketing. That is, they're doing these things to benefit
    themselves. License fees are another matter; those who created and
    produced these shows are entitled to whatever rewards their efforts can
    generate, but, sadly, there are fewer and fewer of these folks to profit
    from whatever renewed interest there is in their artistry, and I doubt
    that many of these survivors are lining their pockets with Mediabay
    license fees. Perhaps Harlan, Harry or Elizabeth can enlighten us
    further on how much the original writers, actors, musicians, announcers
    and sound-effects men are raking in these days.

    It is possible that even a show in the public domain, slickly packaged
    and with informative inserts (which can, themselves, of course, be
    copyrighted), could turn a good profit. Red Hat has proven that with
    their version of the freely available Linux. That doesn't mean no one
    should download a free version of Linux because Red Hat has spent so
    much money on advertising.

>     I also understand people like Shawn Wells who make huge
>     effort at their own expense to produce clean copies of mp3 shows and sell
>     them for a cost. (I understand, but am not sure of his wanting a "contract"
>     signed that they will not post the shows).

    Actually, his contract, though unusual in the world of OTR, doesn't
    really bother me. Nobody's being forced to buy his product; either you
    find his terms acceptable or you don't. Every time you load a new piece
    of software you make a similar commitment when you click the "Accept"
    button. But, even if I were an enthusiastic Lum and Abner fan, I
    couldn't come up with his asking price, no matter how much I might wish to.

>     The issue of producing excellent quality shows such as what First Generation

>     is doing in non-compressed format - only to find someone has compressed and
>     posted them
>     - is a real problem that in my opinion will never go away without some kind
>     of legal battle

    There were pirated copies of _Star Wars Episode II: the Clone Wars_
    (Hmmmm. Could there be a hidden meaning in that title?) available before
    the movie was even released, but that had no impact on the box office,
    nor will the fuzzy, out-of-focus and cheaper bootleg videos seriously
    impact the later sales of official DVD's. But it might not hurt for
    posters like yourself to call the attention of others on the net to the
    issues you are discussing. Some downloaders probably just don't know
    where to get better copies. Others simply don't have the money, so they
    wouldn't have been a factor anyhow.

    And, if you are referring primarily to Usenet, I don't really think it's
    much of a factor anyway. When I got my first computer, a Mac 7100/66
    (still chugging along fine, thank you, though I've long since passed it
    on to my dad in favor of a G3) back in '94 I spent a great deal of time
    on newsgroups before I'd ever heard of Netscape (let alone its ripoff
    imitator, Exploder, from the cyberworld's most ruthless robber baron).
    Today my ISP, Earthlimp, doesn't even support newsgroups except on a
    "best effort" (Newspeak for "no effort") basis. I've heard that fewer
    than 5% of internet users are newsgroup users. I know I have encouraged
    some correspondents from this group to check out Usenet, to no avail;
    it's just not worth the hassle to most internet users.

>     I am sure someone downloaded these now free mp3s, put them on a CD

>     and turned around and sold them on ebay for a cost.

    Well, you can buy anything on eBay including a good beating; I saw an ad
    posted by a fellow who will come to your town, at your expense, and give
    you a good thrashing, for a fee. But the fact that you can BUY anything
    on eBay doesn't necessarily mean you can SELL anything on eBay. I'll bet
    that poor fledgling entrepreneur, despite the freshness of his vision,
    hasn't sold a single whupping.

>     But survival of the hobby has evolved into a
>     market level need and moved beyond the barter or trade approach that worked
>     in the early days.

    I think it works even better now. You don't have to record each tape you
    trade individually, and you don't have to travel to wherever your fellow
    fan is located to trade shows.

>     The missing shows have become a commodity that will not
>     flow freely into the hobby without some payment be it monetary or other.

    Why not? They always have before. Unless you're considering good will
    and maybe posting a requested show in return a form of payment.

>     It is only because otr was a product that few in the past wanted or saw value
>     in that built the availability.

    Hunh? I'm afraid I don't understand that statement. I thought it was
    demand that drove supply.

>     Now those who previously might have shared rare copies see some
>     value in their cache and are reluctant to part with it

    How does refusing to sell or release copies of a rare recording benefit
    its owner (let's call him Mr. Farguand) even if he fears others will
    later bootleg it? Of course, he can always get a good price for an
    original transcription disk, whether or not recordings of it have been
    widely circulated; he might perhaps get even more for a well-known show.
    If, on the other hand, he is hoping to sell copies of the show things
    are a little fuzzier. Simple pride will, one hopes, prompt him to make
    the best reproductions he can. Thereafter, he can point out in his
    advertising that only his version is transcribed from the original
    transcription disks and OTR fans who care about quality will pay more
    for a product that is [removed] pure. He probably will not get rich from a
    single show, but he'll at least make something.

    If Mr. Farquand transcribes the show onto mp3 and posts it for free, it
    will cost him little and many people will thank him, enjoy it and pass
    it on in turn. If he decides to try to market the recordings he may make
    a little money, until some corporation learns of it, tracks down the
    last living heir to the licensing rights, buys them and then sends Mr.
    Farquand a Cease and Desist order. If his is the only copy he could
    probably demand a good price for the disk from someone like First
    Generation, whereby he would make money and the public would gain access
    to the show.

    If he hides the transcription disk in a secret place and only takes it
    out of its fleece-lined, lacquered box late at night, after he's
    triple-bolted all the doors, to gaze at it in rapture for a few moments
    before placing it back in its cubby hole, he may derive pleasure from
    simply owning it, but he will make no money at all. And he is bound to
    be troubled by a guilty conscience. Most OTR fans have an urge - often
    frustrated despite our most fervent efforts - to share our listening
    experience with others. We imagine people all over the country listening
    to the same show we're hearing and steeling their resolve, even as we
    do, to save cooking fat for the war effort. To find a rare show and just
    hoard it is, well, unnatural. And, let's face it, though the
    transcription may belong to Mr. Farquand, the show doesn't.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:07:44 -0400
    From: Tony Baechler <tony@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  The good side of mp3

    Hello Ian and all.  I like your idea about making the "good" stuff
    available only on audio CD and making lower quality encodes for the
    freeloaders, but the fact of the matter is that it would not work.  Surely
    you know how long it takes to rip a track from audio CD into mp3 and post
    it?  Well, if you do not know I will make a guess that it takes no more
    than 20 minutes on the high side.  It really only talke about 5 minutes to
    rip and encode, but I will allow for a slow CD recorder (recorders do a
    much better job at extraction) and call it 10 minutes.  I will also allow
    for a slow news server and say it takes 10 minutes to post, but the reality
    is that there are robots to do that so it only takes a few
    seconds.  Therefore, that would never work either.  Even if, for example,
    FGRA (First Generation Radio Archives) made everything from all their CDs
    available online for download in lower quality, it still only takes a
    matter of seconds for someone to post higher quality versions.  Frankly, I
    am surprised there is not [removed] for raw wave files
    of OTR and/or BBC material.

    Remember that I have been out of the mp3 groups for about a year and a half
    so I have no idea what is floating around nowadays.  Even so, I doubt that
    all 50,000-80,000 shows in circulation among collectors are available.  If
    they are, do you really blame dealers for being so hostile towards mp3
    people?  Having been on both sides of the fence, I agree with the
    frustrations and find most mp3 collectors despicable.  I know that is a
    strong word to use, but considering it is driving most OTR clubs in the
    states out of business I think it is fair.  Even now, I am trying to get
    rid of a bunch of mp3 CDs.

    Still, there is a good side to mp3.  You can try before you buy, similar to
    shareware in the software industry.  I really like the "New Series on the
    Air," for example because I heard it in mp3.  I want to buy it, so I find a
    delaer who sells it.  However, I am in the vast minority.  The other good
    points are for programs such as CBSRMT where there is no one who may
    legally sell them and the rights are owned by HB.  I am still looking for
    the NPR dramas of "Star Wars," on audio CD from someone who is licensed to
    sell.  The primary reason why I bought the "Superman," set from RSI in 2001
    was because I heard it in mp3.

    Finally, someone mentioned the otradio IRC channel.  I looked this up in
    Google groups but could not find current information.  Can someone please
    advies the correct server and hours?  Thanks.

    [ADMINISTRIVIA: Although there is an upstart new IRC channel, the original
    and still-going-strong channel on Starlink-IRC hosted by Lois Culver is noted
    every week in this very Digest - the reminder usually runs Wednesdays. If
    you're not sure how to use IRC, or what software to use, or how to set it up,
    just drop a note to Lois.  --cfs3]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:26:55 -0400
    From: Joe Mackey <joemackey108@[removed];
    To: otr-net <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Today in radio history

      From Those Were The Days --

    1944 - Leonidas Witherall was first broadcast on Mutual. Witherall was a
    detective who looked just like William Shakespeare.

      Joe

    --
    Visit my home page:
    [removed]~[removed]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:27:54 -0400
    From: Herb Harrison <herbop@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Radio actors to TV

    Joyce McHone writes, of "radio voices":

>     But two of the outstanding voices have to be Gale Gordon and Eve Arden,
>     there is no mistaking those two.

    [removed] I forgot these two fine actors, who flourished on radio AND
    television.
    Does anybody else remember Mr. Gordon's "YYEEESSS!!!???" line when dealing
    with Jack Benny on radio or with Lucy on TV?

    Herb Harrison

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:29:20 -0400
    From: Herb Harrison <herbop@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Howard McNear on TV

    Mleannah@[removed] said:

>     To the person who said he disliked Howard McNear on TV, I must respond by
>     saying I strongly disagree."

    Referring to his TV role as the barber in Mayberry, I should have said that
    "I hate that character, as played by Howard McNear".
    I have heard him on some radio programs, mostly on 'Gunsmoke', and I agree
    that he was a fine radio actor.
    I don't remember him in other TV roles, so I can't state an opinion as to
    his overall acting abilities on television, but I will restate this opinion:
    I couldn't stand the character of Floyd The Barber in the Andy Griffith show.

    Herb Harrison

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:29:53 -0400
    From: Derek Tague <derek@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Re: Dragnet's Christmas altar-boy

    Hi Gang!:

        Mr. Dragnet, [removed]  Michael Hayde wrote:

>     However, Billy Gray didn't play the altar boy, either, although I can
>     understand Derek's confusion.  Joseph Heffernan was played by Billy CHAPIN,
>     and if any of the experts here can confirm that he was in any way related to
>     FKB's Lauren Chapin, I should like to know it.

    ++++I stand corrected. i got mixed up w/ the last names "Gray" &
    "Chapin"--both of "Father Knows Best."

    Thanks,

    D. Tague

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:14:23 -0400
    From: Ivan G Shreve Jr <iscreve@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Father Knows Best

    Hi [removed]

    I've been listening to a few episodes from this popular sitcom and I was
    curious to know how it managed to become such a big hit.  Maybe it's just
    me, but Robert Young's character seems to come off kind of hostile; I'm
    almost expecting him to snuff out the lives of his family and move to
    another town, changing his name and identity.

    I experience this uneasiness during some of the early broadcasts (around
    1950) but then it appears that the show worked out the kinks and mellowed
    out (I listened to a broadcast from 1953 and 1954).  Am I the only one who's
    obtained this impression, or am I just crazy?  Or both?

    Ivan G. Shreve Jr.
    --
    "You're pretty high and far out. What kind of kick are you on, son?" -- Jack
    Webb (as Joe Friday), DRAGNET

    ------------------------------

    Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 11:08:54 -0400
    From: hal stone <dualxtwo@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  The Awesome Aussie

    I have composed a song in "honour" of my Aussie mate Ian, who says he will
    buy my book, as long as someone says something nice about it here in the
    Digest.   [removed] will now say something nice about it. "The cover has a
    pretty blue background".

    (These lyrics are to be sung to the tune of that great American Classic
    "Home Home on the Range").

    Home, home in the Outback.
    Where the Roo and the Billybong play.
    Where seldom is heard, an American word,
    And Grape-Nuts are eaten all day.

    Home, home in the Outback.
    They have little to do I've heard say.
    The distance is great, and if one has no mate,
    They play Mp3 OTR all the day.

    Copyright 2002
    Library of Congress # 276519376519
    All rights reserved
    reprinted here courtesy of

    Hal(Harlan)Stone
    Flaskhead (English spelling)

    Note to Admisistrivia: the preceding is not off topic. Mp3 and OTR are
    mentioned!)

    --------------------------------
    End of [removed] Digest V2002 Issue #202
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