------------------------------
The Old-Time Radio Digest!
Volume 2001 : Issue 361
A Part of the [removed]!
ISSN: 1533-9289
Today's Topics:
Religious Programming [ "Ron Vanover" <vanoverr@[removed]; ]
AMOS & ANDY OVER SHORTWAVE; [ "Owens Pomeroy" <opomeroy@[removed]; ]
Newfoundland Canada????? [ "Dave" <davewh@[removed]; ]
Reel to reel tapes [ "John edwards" <jcebigjohn41@hotmai ]
WOOF-WOOF [ Sandy Singer <sinatradj@[removed]; ]
BBC finds over a hundred programmes [ "S Skuse" <sskuse@[removed]; ]
Jelly Rolls [ "John edwards" <jcebigjohn41@hotmai ]
Re: Naughty Words on Radio [ Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed] ]
re: Hadacol "Boogie" [ Gerry Wright <gdwright@[removed]; ]
Hadacol [ Roo61@[removed] (Randy Watts) ]
Re: BBC Xmas Carol [ Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed] ]
WBCQ [ "David L. Easter" <david-easter@hom ]
'45 sleeves [ "James B. Wood, [removed]" <woodjim@ ]
The Man Who Loved Jellyroll [ Tom and Susan Kleinschmidt <tomkle@ ]
Shortwave [ Wiliam L Murtough <k2mfi@[removed]; ]
AMOS & ANDY OVER SHORTWAVE: UPDATE [ "Owens Pomeroy" <opomeroy@[removed]; ]
Archiving and the Archives [ Harlan Zinck <buster@[removed]; ]
Gotham Radio Players [ Jim Widner <jwidner@[removed]; ]
Re: BBC archives [ Michael Biel <mbiel@[removed]; ]
Today in Radio History [ Joe Mackey <joemackey5@[removed]; ]
Seeing By Ear [ "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@ ]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 12:24:18 -0500
From: "Ron Vanover" <vanoverr@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Religious Programming
The recent talk regarding religious programming prompts to ask if anyone has
or knows where audio archives of such shows might be found. I would love to
find copies of Revialtime with CM Ward, but would be interested in others as
well. Any help would be appreciated.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 12:25:19 -0500
From: "Owens Pomeroy" <opomeroy@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: AMOS & ANDY OVER SHORTWAVE;
Any one with a short wave set can now hear Amos & Andy at midnight each
night on WBCQ "World Wide Radio". Tune in at the 49 meter band at [removed]
megacycles (or megahertz), for a program of early A&A programs from the
1930's with Bill Hay announcing and complete with the NBC chimes at the end
of the program.
They can be found on the internet at [removed] and are billed as Planet
Radio. Any one ever hear of this SW Station?
Owens
(Source for this article is from short-wave operator, Jack Bond
bondpaper@[removed])
<br><br><br>"Old-Time Radio is like vintage wine. . . it grows better with
age!"
"nostalgia is like a grammar lesson:. . . you find the PRESENT TENSE. . .
but the PAST PERFECT!"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 12:24:30 -0500
From: "Dave" <davewh@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Newfoundland Canada?????
Geeze, I hate to nitpick [removed] Newfoundland wasn't part of Canada
during WWII. Newfoundland was still part of the British Empire. The
struggle to join Confederation led by Premier Joey Smallwood was still a few
years off. A little Canadian history from a JohnnyCanuck.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 12:24:53 -0500
From: "John edwards" <jcebigjohn41@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Reel to reel tapes
I'm new to the digest and enjoy it very [removed] surprised to see so many
people that I know & know of responding. I'm a reel to reel guy (thousands)
& cassettes (close to l000). Maybe I've been lucky but not that many
problems have surfaced. Many of the tapes are at least 30 yrs old. Tape
squeal has been the most often problem when one occurs. Have a question
though what does it mean to "bake" the tape to eliminate tape squeal. I
have used water to eliminate the squeal enough to get a good copy
transferred, but had never heard of "baking".About 8 yrs ago about 5% of my
reel to reels were in a flood and didn't seem to suffer any [removed]
boxes didn't make out as well. Glad to see that Hal Stone is a Diamondback
fan but I thought Mark Grace played 1st [removed] least he did when I
followed the Cubbies ...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 12:25:06 -0500
From: Sandy Singer <sinatradj@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: WOOF-WOOF
--"woof-woof" sound cues, and timechecks--
Anybody know the history of how 'woof-woof'
came to be? Only thing my imagination can conjure up is, once, when a
remote tech was giving the time check, a dog barked.
[removed]
A DATE WITH SINATRA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:31:41 -0500
From: "S Skuse" <sskuse@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: BBC finds over a hundred programmes
On 9 Nov 2001 Charlie Summers wrote:
There's a link on The News Pages today to a CNN article detailing
the successes the BBC has had in finding lost (read: unrecorded)
programs, both television and radio, including a 1931 adaptation
of, "A Christmas Carol," the earliest complete BBC drama in existence:
[removed]
Details of the OTR radio shows which the BBC has recovered (including sound
clips from some of the recovered shows) can be found at:
[removed]
Sandra Skuse
[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:05:52 -0500
From: "John edwards" <jcebigjohn41@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Jelly Rolls
The program Arte was referring to about the Jelly Rolls was a Theater Five
Show titled "The Man Who Loved Jelly Rolls (Pgm 57 -10/20/64)which was an
excellent series that ran l year on ABC but was played by stations at some
awful hours like l or 2 [removed] I have the show and I'd be glad to get him a
copy but it would have to be on reel to reel or cassette.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:33:12 -0500
From: Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Re: Naughty Words on Radio
Steve Kallis wonders,
Today, on broadcast talk shows, and some commentary programs, there are
lots of words that would never have made it over the air in the days of
OTR, including "son of a bitch" and "a**hole." A far cry from the days
where there had to be a special ruling that allowed Gone With The Wind,
the motion picture, to retain Rhett Butler's famous line, "Frankly, my
dear, I don't give a damn."
S-O-B and suchlike phrases never would have made the cut (although "you
silly ass" was used without challenge in a 1935 Fred Allen script, and
there are probably a great many other examples of such usage yet to be
discoverd in early-1930s radio) but "hell" and "damn" were used freely
during the thirties in "adult-oriented" dramatic programs. It wasn't
until the brouhaha over the broadcast of "Beyond The Horizon" on NBC's
"Pulitzer Prize Plays" series in the summer of 1938 that language rules
for radio cracked down hard. The real blowup over broadcast censorship
happened during 1937-38, with the Mae West matter and the "Beyond The
Horizon" incident the prime catalysts.
In both cases, complaints from listeners brought the issues to the
attention of the FCC, and while they had no legal authority to censor
broadcast content, the resulting bad publicity was enough to make the
networks even warier of anything that might be in the least bit
controversial. In the case of "Beyond The Horizon," a complaint from *a
single listener* in Minnesota challenged the FCC to consider whether
station WTCN, the NBC Blue outlet in Minneapolis, had violated the terms
of its license by airing the words "hell" and "damn." This complaint had
a ripple effect that was felt thruout the industry.
The issue of broadcast censorship was siezed upon by politicans hard up
for a cause to bolster their reelection efforts in the 1938 off-year
election, and the issue was further whipped up by smarmy and
self-righteous newspaper editorialists looking for another excuse to
attack the broadcasting industry. The ultimate result was to make
broadcasters far more careful about keeping Naughty Words off the air.
There were many calls during 1938 for the organization of a radio
equivalent of the Hays Office -- perhaps by somehow putting real teeth in
the NAB Code -- but broadcasters had no taste for this sort of highly
visible self-regulation, and nothing ever came of the idea.
An excellent book to consult on this subject is "Radio Censorship,"
edited by Harrison Summers, and published by the H. W. Wilson Company in
1939. It's a collection of articles and editorials on the subject,
gathered from both the trade and the civilian press during the 1930s.
Hard to find, but an invaluable resource if you can dig up a copy.
Elizabeth
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:33:39 -0500
From: Gerry Wright <gdwright@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: re: Hadacol "Boogie"
Don Dean, mentioned "The Hadacol Boogie" and then asked who wrote the
song.
The Hadacol Boogie was written and recorded by Bill Nettles. All the
words, with the chords, for those who like to sing along can be found
at:
<[removed];
Gerry Wright
ZoneZebra Productions
San Francisco
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 13:33:53 -0500
From: Roo61@[removed] (Randy Watts)
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Hadacol
The posts on Hadacol have been interesting. I have an old recording,
"Black Strap Molasses," sung by the very curious quartet of Danny Kaye,
Jimmy Durante, Jane Wyman and Groucho Marx, in which Hadacol is
referenced. It's nice to finally know what the product in question is.
--Randy
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:48:00 -0500
From: Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Re: BBC Xmas Carol
On 11/10/01 11:05 AM OldRadio Mailing Lists wrote:
There's a link on The News Pages today to a CNN article detailing the
successes the BBC has had in finding lost (read: unrecorded) programs, both
television and radio, including a 1931 adaptation of, "A Christmas Carol,"
the earliest complete BBC drama in existence:
Are there any British connections on the Digest who might be able to
provide confirmation of details on this beyond the information that's
been in the press? There's been circulating among OTR collectors for some
time a version of "A Christmas Carol" produced by George Ludlum for the
NBC Thesaurus Transcription Service in 1934 -- but over the last couple
of years I've run across misdated and misattributed MP3 versions of this,
claiming it to be a "1931 BBC Production." This is probably just
coincidental -- but I'd hate to think of the BBC archivists being taken
in by bogus information (not that it hasn't happened [removed])
This same Thesaurus recording also circulates, by the way, under a
"12/24/31 -- NBC" date. It's no such thing -- and in fact, it remained in
circulation thru Thesaurus pressings well into the early fifties.
Elizabeth
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:49:59 -0500
From: "David L. Easter" <david-easter@[removed];
To: "Old-Time Radio Digest (E-mail)" <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: WBCQ
Re: Jack Bond via Owens Pomeroy
Subject: WBCQ?
WBCQ - The Planet is a 50,000 watt short-wave radio station that serves
North America, the Caribbean and most of South America on 7,415 kHz, 9,335
kHz and 17,495 kHz.
WBCQ
97 High Street
Kennebunk, ME 04043 USA
[removed]
David L. Easter
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:49:31 -0500
From: "James B. Wood, [removed]" <woodjim@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: '45 sleeves
Greg Willy inquires after a certain '45 he
listened to as a kid; I have a related general
question: does anyone know where to get
heavy paper sleeves for '[removed] similar to the
green ones that radio stations used in the
'50s and '60s?
Thanks, anyone,
Jim Wood
Brea, CA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:49:45 -0500
From: Tom and Susan Kleinschmidt <tomkle@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: The Man Who Loved Jellyroll
Arte is looking for "The Man Who Loved Jellyroll" which aired 10/20/64 on
the series THEATER FIVE on ABC. I'm a big fan of this series, although
there were many clinkers in the group. When it was good though, it was VERY
GOOD! I believe copies can be found from many larger dealers. It certainly
is not uncommon.
Tom
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:03:55 -0500
From: Wiliam L Murtough <k2mfi@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Shortwave
When I returned to CBS New York from CBS Hollywood in the spring of 1951
I had a weekday, daytime schedulr for the first time in my long broadcast
career. My first assignment would be "second man" on the Morning News
Roundup. Dallas Townsend, who later became an on the air news
broadcaster, was the editor. Harry Clark, staff announcer, read the news.
The other engineer was Bob Eaker, who was a friend from my WHN days.
There was a panel with a series of switches next to the audio panel with
which to contact the overseas reporters, next to the mixing console,
which I would operate, a duplicate of the one in the editor's office. The
feeds, were two-way, However, we did not receive them by short-wave, but
by telco lines from the various services, such as [removed];T. and RCAC (RCA
CommunIcations). I forget who the ohers were. The signals were AM as SSB
had not come into use at that time One morning the telco engineer got a
little nasty due to my talking to the remote prior to the scheduled time
for the circuit to be active. I pointed out that I did it to prevent an
error like the day previous when I got Franfurt instead of Paris. He
checked the previous day's log and came back with a profuse appology,
inviting me to use the circuit any time I pleased!
That was a great summer. I did vacation relief on about every soap opera
we [removed] Also Irene Beasley's "Grand Slam", which began a long friendship
with her. In fact, we later became neighbors. However, come fall and I
was asigned to "name" shows, including "Phillip Morris Playhouse", "Grand
Central Station", "What's My Line", etc.
Bill Murtough
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:04:22 -0500
From: "Owens Pomeroy" <opomeroy@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: AMOS & ANDY OVER SHORTWAVE: UPDATE
On yesterdays posting on this topic, It was presumed that the broadcasts
were recreations. I have since learned from the original source, that they
are the ACTUAL very early broadcasts. Below is a revised posting about this
most ubusual Station on shortwave.
***********************************************************************
Any one with a short wave set can now hear Amos & Andy at midnight each
night on WBCQ "World Wide Radio". Tune in at the 49 meter band at [removed]
megacycles (or megahertz), for a program of early A&A programs from the
1930's with Bill Hay announcing and complete with the NBC chimes at the end
of the program.
They can be found on the internet at [removed] and are billed as Planet
Radio. Any one ever hear of this SW Station?
Owens
(Source for this article is from short-wave operator, Jack Bond
bondpaper@[removed])
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 18:04:27 -0500
From: Harlan Zinck <buster@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Archiving and the Archives
Having read the various postings over the past few days regarding tape vs.
CD and preservation/restoration debates, I'm pleased to note that our OTR
organization, the First Generation Radio Archives, is doing almost exactly
the same things as the "professional" archives when it comes to the
preservation and restoration of original radio materials.
We have a collection of well over 6000 shows at the moment, most contained
on original lacquer, syndication, and AFRS disks. When we start to work
with a particular show, we follow a standard professional procedure:
· We first catalog the disk, noting show title and broadcast date
information, but also matrix numbers, run-out information, and other data
that we believe will prove useful to know now and later on.
· Next, we digitally scan the labels of each side of the transcriptions (or
the area where the label would be if there were one) and, after
straightening the scan and cropping it to a standard size, save the scans
as 300 dpi bitmap files. (Lower resolution JPG scans are made from the BMP
scans and posted to our website.)
· When the disks are dubbed by our transfer technicians - like the Digest's
own Elizabeth McLeod, Karl Pearson, and Joe Salerno, among others - they
are first carefully cleaned and inspected, then transferred using the
proper roll off and curve. The proper stylus is used for the transfer - in
fact, different styli are often used for different parts of the disk,
especially when disks are aged or heavily worn. These transfers are made
completely "raw," meaning with no re-equalization, compression, noise
reduction, or any other technological jiggery-pokery that could change the
fidelity of the original recording. We archive these "raw" dubs and use
them as the basis for our restorations.
(It's important to note that we retain these "raw" dubs, even after
restoring a program. We believe that, as digital technology improves, it
will be crucial to have these transfers to work with later on. Why other
people who work with original recordings don't do this is beyond me; the
cost is nominal - a high quality blank CD costs less that .50 these days -
and reprocessing or filtering the sound while dubbing gives you no
flexibility after the fact.)
· The raw transfers are then run through our CEDAR processing equipment to
remove most of the scratches, pops, clicks, and hiss associated with old
recordings. The comparison of what goes in with what comes out is truly
amazing - you can hear a sample of what I mean by going to the
"restoration" page on our website:
[removed]
Restoration continues after CEDAR, with proofers carefully listening to the
processed shows to note remaining defects, a senior technician using the
proofer's notes to correct the problems, then standardizing the audio
levels, pasting ends together, and creating the final restoration. What our
members and volunteers hear when they check out a CD from our library or
receive the loan of one of our Round Robin CD sets is the sound of the
original recording, with all of its fidelity intact and the majority of the
defects of age and time removed. At the risk of bragging, many of the shows
sound simply sensational.
If you'd like the chance to hear programs that have been respectfully and
professionally restored, visit our website for complete information:
[removed]
Memberships are only $[removed] per year, which gives you access to the over
600 restored programs in our First Generation Library, over 700 one-hour
CDs in our Low Generation Library, and the chance to subscribe to a series
of sixteen 20-CD Round Robins containing the best in first generation,
direct-from-disk original radio programs. Library CD loans are only $[removed]
per CD and a subscription to our Round Robin collections is only $[removed] per
month. Complete catalogs of all are available at the website.
Volunteers who help us receive free CD loans in exchange for their work.
Anyone with time and dedication can be a volunteer - no previous experience
necessary - and we'd welcome the help!
We don't work with or issue MP3s because, frankly, the sound quality is
simply not good enough. Personally, having heard the high fidelity of
original recordings, properly transferred and respectfully restored, I find
that I have a hard time listening to MP3s. They are an incredibly cheap way
to preview or acquire a lot of shows quickly, but the audio quality I've
heard on 9/10 of the CDs in circulation is simply appalling.
We believe that, with the efforts of our dedicated volunteers, a respect
and understanding of the specific requirements necessary to respectfully
handle original recordings, and the support of the OTR community, we can
preserve as many radio programs as possible in a responsible and
professional manner. After years of multi-generational tape dubs, poor
transfers, and now low-fidelity MP3s, we think these classic shows finally
deserve better treatment.
Join us, won't you?
Harlan
Harlan Zinck, Preservation Manager
First Generation Radio Archives
[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 19:03:39 -0500
From: Jim Widner <jwidner@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Gotham Radio Players
Sean mentioned the Gotham Radio Players at the convention:
A highlight as always was The Gotham Radio Players, whose
production of Suspense episode "Heaven's to Betsy" with special guest star
Dick Beals went off without a hitch.
While I have seen Steve Lewis' group at the convention before, I must
compliment him on seeing radio drama produced very very professionally. The
convention recreations give one a sense of seeing the veteran radio actors
"strutting their stuff" but groups such as Steve's give one a sense of what
a serious production truly is/was. While I have never seen a "real on the
air" production, watching Steve's group fills me with a sense of what it
must have been like even if the sound effects methods, etc are more modern.
It is groups such as Steve's and the Atlanta Radio Theatre and other
professional radio drama groups that are going to help keep this hobby
exciting to be a part of.
If you haven't had an opportunity to see these groups, I strongly suggest
one of the conventions. I really enjoyed watching these young pros work and
create for me a true sense of "radio imagination."
Jim Widner
jwidner@[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 21:31:33 -0500
From: Michael Biel <mbiel@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: BBC archives
From: Roo61@[removed] (Randy Watts)
There was also a passing mention that "more than 20" radio dramas
from the 1960s existed in BBC vaults.
Seems the American networks aren't alone in their failure to hang
on to their older radio material. --Randy
I've posted in the past that although the BBC Archive is huge, their
restrictive policies on what they deemed worthy of saving has resulted
in enormous amounts of popular entertainment not having been saved. But
really, both they and the American networks DID hang on to an
astonishing huge amount of their older radio material. The NBC
collection was at about 175,000 discs when turned over to the Library of
Congress. I remember Les Waffen at the National Archives complaining
that at 40,000 discs the ABC collection they had been given was much
larger than they had been led to expect. The Mutual collection was also
quite sizable but had been decimated by some collectors over the years.
There are individual stations that had sizable collections. The NBC
Chicago collection was 15,000 discs before half of it was stolen at a
midnight raid by several well known collectors--about 5,500 of that raid
ended up as donations to LC along with 50,000 discs from other sources.
So there is a VAST amount of material that WAS saved by the [removed]
networks, although I know of HUGE amounts of discs that were destroyed
by them. Remember, for much of the OTR era, the networks had no reason
to MAKE the recordings because there was practically no way they could
USE the material. Re-runs were forbidden until 1949, even then the
costs of a repeat would be almost the same as a new production, etc. In
all the research I have done in the paperwork at NBC I have not found a
good reason WHY they made the recordings they did other than just
"BECAUSE." Yes, there are many things that are gone and some that are
considered the holy grails of OTR, but there are more recordings around
than you or I could ever hope to hear in our lifetimes.
Michael Biel mbiel@[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 21:31:57 -0500
From: Joe Mackey <joemackey5@[removed];
To: otr-net <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Today in Radio History
From Today in History
11/7
In 1932, CBS radio presented the first broadcast of "Buck Rogers in the
25th Century." Matt Crowley, Curtis Arnall, Carl Frank and John Larkin
played Buck in the serial over the years (1932-1947).
In 1937, "Dr. Christian" debuted on CBS radio, with Jean Hersholt
playing the part of the kindly, elderly Dr. Christian who practiced on
the air until 1954.
11/9
In 1948, "This is Your Life" debuted on NBC radio; Ralph Edwards hosted
the radio show for two years and for nine more (1952-1961) on
television.
Joe
--
Visit my home page:
[removed]~[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 21:32:51 -0500
From: "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Seeing By Ear
Speaking about Owens Pomeroy's speculation as to whether "Band of
Brothers" and/or other TV shows or movies could feasibly translate to
OSR, Hal Stone observed,
Obviously, I don't. Just because something is "wonderful" on TV, does
not mean that it would "translate" well to radio. And particularly, this
series. There is no way that radio could "capture" the horrors of war,
the devastating effects of an artillery barrage, the fear on Men's faces
in a heated battle, etc. etc. etc. And what about the tears in the eyes
of the actual veterans who recounted their experiences. To tell a story
like [removed] MUST BE VISUAL!
Before addressing the specific question and response, I'd observe that
the primary sense of those humans have is sight. "A picture is worth a
thousand words is a cliche, but it also reflects a truism. For the vast
majority of folk, visual presentations seem more natural.
That having been said, things don't necessarily have to be visual, and
some OTR shows, notably The Lone Ranger, provided high entertainment.
Let's not get bogged down in a discussion of "theater of the mind," and
stuff like that; some shows work better visually whereas others can be
effective radio style. Lux Radio Theater, for one showed that some films
could translate into effective audio shows. So, while Hal correctly
points out that some stories wouldn't work by sound alone (how on Earth
could you do a Lux Radio Theater version of One Millon Years [removed], where
the dialogue consisted of nothing but grunts, when there was dialogue at
all?); but others could do pretty well (such as My Dinner With Andre). I
observed before that NPR did a radio adaptation of Star Wars, and I heard
nobody complain about that one.
The problem goes back to something more fundamental: is there a place for
OSR in today's world? If so, then it doesn't matter whether one adapts
existing TV or motion pictures to OSR or creates new stories for the
medium. If not, then discussion isn't necessary. While I suspect that a
form of OSR could be made to work, it would take a bit of convincing to
get folk to tune in.
Stephen A. Kallis, Jr
--------------------------------
End of [removed] Digest V2001 Issue #361
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