Subject: [removed] Digest V2002 #510
From: "OldRadio Mailing Lists" <[removed]@[removed];
Date: 12/30/2002 2:51 PM

To: <[removed]@[removed];

    ------------------------------

                                The Old-Time Radio Digest!
                                  Volume 2002 : Issue 510
                             A Part of the [removed]!
                                     ISSN: 1533-9289

                                     Today's Topics:

      Re: A&A: Preserving the Record        [ Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed] ]
      Sen-Sen                               [ "Michael Leannah" <mleannah@charter ]
      re: George Burns on stage             [ "Gary Yoggy" <yoggy@[removed]; ]
      Durable series                        [ otrbuff@[removed] ]
      Re: Rates and Stuff                   [ Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed] ]
      Re: Say Goodnight Gracie              [ "MICHAEL BIEL" <mbiel@[removed]; ]
      Long-Running Shows                    [ "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@ ]
      Re: More Variety Programs             [ Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed] ]
      Re: Frank Gorshin/George Burns        [ jameshburns@[removed] (Jim Burns) ]
      some REAL OLD time radio              [ "B. J. Watkins" <kinseyfan@hotmail. ]
      OTR on video                          [ vigor16@[removed] ]
      Steve Lewis' Remarks on George Burns  [ "James Faulkner" <tsunami100@[removed] ]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 09:46:52 -0500
    From: Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Re: A&A: Preserving the Record

    Jim Widner wonders,

>     It just seems that they must have had a sense of history, given the
>     popularity of the characters,  that the creators themselves would have
>     considered some kind of archive even one as primitive as a disc recording
>     at the time.

    We'll probably never know what Correll and Gosden were thinking along the
    lines of preservation during their earliest years, but we can theorize.
    Keep in mind that in just about everything they did between 1926 and
    1929, they were breaking entirely new ground: no one had ever done a
    continuing-character dramatic program before they did, no one had ever
    done a nightly serial before they did, no one had ever distributed a
    program by recorded syndication before they did, no one had ever done a
    15-minute network strip before they did. Every step of the way, there was
    the potential for failure -- and the performers had no idea whether or
    not these innovations would work. Their idea of the future, at this
    point, was simply to get thru each week -- in their wildest dreams they
    couldn't have imagined in 1928 what "Amos 'n' Andy" would become by 1930.
    They didn't know if they *had* a future, let alone that people would
    still be interested in their work seventy-five years later.

    I can tell you that Gosden's oldest son (born in 1929) did not remember
    any collection of recordings existing during his childhood. His memories
    of the scripts, on the other hand, were quite vivid -- they were bound in
    large leather volumes and kept in an imposing antique bookcase in his
    father's office. The side of this bookcase was covered with little
    penknife notches -- each notch marking an incident where a script was
    torn up in frustration and rewritten entirely from scratch. (These are
    the same volumes now held by USC.)

    The only positive memory of recordings which came up in my discussions
    with Freeman Jr. was an account of how his father used to bring home a
    recording of each year's Christmas broadcast, and he would take the disc
    into his office and listen to it alone, over and over again, until it was
    time for bed.

    I've never established just how much day-to-day personal involvement
    Correll and Gosden had with the operation of the chainless chain. It was
    administered by the Chicago Daily News Syndicate office, under the
    supervision of C&G's business manager Alex Robb, and it seems to have
    been Robb who actually kept an eye on that end of the operation while C&G
    occupied themselves with the creative end of things. But C&G -- and
    especially Gosden -- would almost certainly have reviewed the pressings
    of each episode when they were delivered from the factory, at least until
    they left for their personal-appearance tour in April 1929.

    They certainly *could* have retained a copy of each disc for future
    reference -- the best theory I can come up with for why they didn't was
    that they wanted to ensure that there would be no chance their own
    recordings could ever be used illegally. After their bitter break from
    WGN cost them "Sam and Henry," Correll and Gosden realized the importance
    of keeping a very tight control over their intellectual property -- the
    first thing they did when they moved to WMAQ was insist on a contract
    provision giving them sole ownership of the series, its title, and its
    characters, and they saw to it that everything relating to "Amos 'n'
    Andy" was fully protected by trademarks and copyrights. But given the
    ease with which a recording could  be illegally used, it would make sense
    for them to insist that the chainless-chain recordings be destroyed after
    a single broadcast. Likely the only way they felt safe from potential
    infringement was to ensure that no recordings survived  -- and we can be
    thankful at least that a few recordings managed to leak out anyway!

    Correll and Gosden were equally protective of their scripts -- no one at
    the agency or the network was ever allowed to see them, and during the
    1930s A&A had the distinction of being the only program on NBC which was
    not required to submit to censorship by Continuity Acceptance. The
    scripts themselves were carefully preserved primarily as a reference tool
    -- the serial A&A generally maintained a tight continuity, for its first
    several years especially, and there were frequent references to past
    events. The scripts were frequently consulted to determine who said what
    to whom under what circumstances, ensuring that all the continuity fit
    together. The performers became a bit less attentive to this sort of
    detail in the later years of the serial, but by then the precedent of
    saving the scripts had been thoroughly established, and continued for the
    rest of the program's run. We can be thankful that this practice was
    followed -- as a result, A&A is one of the few programs of radio's
    pioneer era for which all scripts survive.

    Elizabeth

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:35:47 -0500
    From: "Michael Leannah" <mleannah@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Sen-Sen

    One last word on Sen-Sen. I was surprised to hear most people writing of the
    stuff in the past tense. Here in Sheboygan, Wisconsin, it is commonly seen
    on the drugstore counters. It's not my family's favorite, but the kids talk
    me into buying a packet from time to time. In fact, I had some in my coat
    pocket when I first saw the postings. The package reads (in English and
    French): "Created in the mid 1890s, Sen-Sen Throat Ease and Breath Freshener
    is the first commercial breath freshener in the USA. Valuable to Singers and
    Speakers, Sen-Sen's blend of licorice and rare herbs effectively mask odors
    from smoke, food or drink." They are made by F&F Laboratories in Chicago. My
    pack cost 60 cents. At a net weight of [removed] ounces, that's $[removed] a pound!

    Mike Leannah

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:10:03 -0500
    From: "Gary Yoggy" <yoggy@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  re: George Burns on stage
    X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative
    X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain

    I was truly stunned by Steve Lewis' comments regarding SAY GOODNIGHT GRACIE.
    Of course,  everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but if Steve's view is
    prevalent, there is no reason to have one man (or one woman) shows like
    BARRYMORE or MARK TWAIN TONIGHT!  to name a couple of the more successful
    ones.  I'm curious to hear how others who saw that show felt.  thanks,  Gary
    Yoggy

      *** This message was altered by the server, and may not appear ***
      ***                  as the sender intended.                   ***

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:21:28 -0500
    From: otrbuff@[removed]
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Durable series

    Andrew Godfrey asks if anybody can think of any radio series that lasted
    beyond 30 years.  We've been down this road several times.  Here are 10
    for old time's sake, and this may not be all-inclusive:

    Grand Ole Opry (11/28/25-present)
    Amos 'n' Andy aka Sam 'n' Henry (1/12/26-11/25/60)
    Salt Lake City Tabernacle Choir aka Music and the Spoken Word
    (7/15/29-present)
    Lowell Thomas and the News (9/30/30-5/14/76)
    Metropolitan Opera (12/25/31-present)
    The Breakfast Club (6/23/33-12/27/68)
    The Guiding Light (1/25/37-6/29/56 and still on television today)
    Meet the Press (12/1/46-7/27/86 and still on television today)
    Paul Harvey News (11/26/50-present)
    News on the Hour (summer 1954-present)

    Jim Cox

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:31:56 -0500
    From: Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Re: Rates and Stuff

    On 12/30/02 10:11 AM OldRadio Mailing Lists wrote:

>     Elizabeth - what were the hourly rates in 1941?

    I don't have a network rate card for 1941 on hand -- but you can get an
    idea for how rates increased over the years by considering that during
    1932-33, an hour of time on WEAF cost $900 -- and by 1939-40, that same
    hour would cost a sponsor $1200. Network rate cards were calculated on
    the basis of the combined basic hourly rates of all stations used by the
    sponsor, so one can expect that NBC rates increased accordingly over the
    years.

>     And what percentage of the
>     availble hours did they sell in various dayparts?

    The only breakdown I have handy dates to 1934, and indicates that only
    [removed] per cent of the total program hours for NBC (Red and Blue combined)
    were sold to sponsors. [removed] per cent of NBC program time was sustaining.
    This is, however, a skewed figure -- it lumps daytime and nighttime
    together into one calculation, and this was done deliberately: the
    figures were assembled by NBC for use in an FCC hearing in order to
    emphasize the public-service aspects of the network's operation. I don't
    have an exact percentage, but just looking at program schedules for 1934
    indicates that the proportion of sponsored time during the evening hours
    was *much* higher than [removed] per cent!

    Indeed, during calendar year 1934, [removed] per cent of NBC's revenue came
    from nighttime sales, with only [removed] per cent received from daytime
    sales. NBC's daytime sales percentages are very interesting to examine
    during the 1930s -- from 1931-33, they remained essentially static in the
    21 per cent range, increased to 23 per cent by 1936, and then spiked all
    the way up to 31 per cent during 1937. This can be explained by
    considering that 1937 was the year that daytime soap opera sales really
    caught fire.

>     And did news sponsors have any say on how the news was presented?

    The only documented example of direct sponsor interference in a
    commentary program that I've run across was in late 1935 -- when the
    Cream of Wheat Company severed its relationship with
    critic/commentator/raconteur Alexander Woollcott over Woollcott's refusal
    to stop criticising European dictators. Cream of Wheat had ordered
    Woollcott not to mention Hitler or Mussolini on his program for fear of
    offending German or Italian listeners -- and Woollcott refused to obey.
    There's also evidence that Cream of Wheat actively attempted to blacklist
    Woollcott after this firing -- I've seen a letter from the head of Cream
    of Wheat's advertising department dated two years after the commentator's
    dismissal discussing Woollcott in extremely negative terms. A sponsor
    interested in picking up Woollcott's program wrote to Cream of Wheat
    looking for the real story behind his firing -- and the Cream of Wheat
    advertising manager responded by bitterly denouncing Woollcott as
    (paraphrasing here from memory) an irresponsible troublemaker who refused
    to accept discipline.

    There were certainly local stations where management ran the news
    department with a heavy hand -- during the labor strife of 1937, Powel
    Crosley of WLW issued an edict to his news staff that no coverage of any
    kind was to be given to news of organized labor. George Richards of WJR
    Detroit ("The Goodwill Station," home base to Father Coughlin) had a
    longstanding policy that no positive mention was ever to be given to
    either President or Mrs. Roosevelt or to any Jewish organization. There
    were no doubt other examples.

    Elizabeth

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:18:16 -0500
    From: "MICHAEL BIEL" <mbiel@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Re: Say Goodnight Gracie

    From: StevenL751@[removed]

>     It's an impersonator doing a George Burns act, and not a terribly
>     good impersonation in my opinion. Now that still might have worked
>     if there had been a dramatic reason for this play to exist and "George"
>     was a character in the play, but there's no play here. It's just "George"
>     telling the story of his life as if it was a stand-up routine.      Steve

    Lewis

    What you have described is the classic form of a "One Man Show" that has
    been done for dozens of historical characters, so there is no reason to
    have expected the play to have been in any other format.  The problem is
    that we all know what George Burns sounded like, and we expect an exact
    imitation.  But on the other hand, when Hal Holbrook does "Mark Twain
    Tonight" he does an impersonation of Twain but since nobody now living
    knows what Twain sounded like (the rumors that Holbrook had access to a
    dictating machine cylinder of Twain's has never been confirmed--and
    Holbrook purposefully maintains the mystery) we accept Holbrook's
    impersonation although it might be far off.  When Henry Fonda or Raymond
    Massay portrayed Abraham Lincoln these portrayals were accepted because,
    again, nobody living could really compare them with the original--and
    written descriptions show that they were far off the mark.  I've seen a
    half dozen actors portraying Thomas Edison and none have even tried to come
    close to his voice even when I have provided them with recordings of
    Edison.

    At FOTR my daughter and I had a chance to have a long talk with master
    impersonator Will Jordan, and he commented on Frank Gorshin's portrayal of
    Burns.  Although I should really check the tape of our conversation, I
    recall that he described his friend's work in this role as an acting
    interpretion rather than an imitation.  This surprised him since he said
    that Burn's voice is so easy to do.  My daughter had a chance to see the
    show but I have not had the chance yet.  She was forewarned that Gorshin
    would look the part--something that surprised me--but would not sound the
    part, and she agreed.  The woman playing Gracie sounds very much like her
    but doesn't match the look as much.  There are radio ads running on WCBS,
    and in the one time I have heard it Gorshin seems to drift in and out of
    the voice, sometimes sounding dead on, but then a moment later sounding
    quite off.  But Gracie sounds fine.  In one of the print ads I have seen I
    think they actually use a photo of Burns, but in the posters outside the
    theatre it is Gorshin.

    I think we have a classic situation of the difficulty of doing a theatrical
    presentation of events that happened within the lifetime of the audience.
    When is something an historical costume play or when is it a "docudrama"?
    If it concerns George Washington and the revolutionary war, it is an
    historical costume play, when it concerns JFK and the Cuban missile crisis
    it is a docudrama.  And now considering the fact that recordings exist for
    most 20th century figures, they will forever be potentially "within the
    lifetime of the audience."  Yet when Henry Fonda did a one-man show of
    Clarence Darrow, there were no real complaints that Darrow seemed to sound
    just like Henry Fonda because very few people have heard the very few
    recordings of Darrow,

    Perhaps we have unfair expectations because we can remember recent events
    and personalities.  If someone who lived thru the Revolutionary War would
    come back to life (like Ted Williams in the future) he would be highly
    annoyed at a drama portraying George Washington as he did not remember
    him!!!

    Michael Biel  mbiel@[removed]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:18:43 -0500
    From: "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Long-Running Shows

    Andrew Godfrey asks,

>     Saw in last digest where Breakfast Club was on the air for 35 years.
>     Were any other shows on longer than 35 years?

    Well, the Metropolitan Opera should qualify.  It started in 1931, and as
    far as I know, it's still chugging along.

    Paul Harvey is an OTR relic, and he's still broadcasting.

    Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:19:14 -0500
    From: Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Re: More Variety Programs

    On 12/30/02 10:11 AM OldRadio Mailing Lists wrote:

>     Last, I had mentioned my favorite variety show, the Kraft Music Hall and
>     Elizabeth responded with a favorite of hers, the Rudy Vallee Show
>     (although it had different names thru the years),  and I was wondering
>     if there were other shows that deserved a mention.

    I very much enjoy Paul Whiteman's 1933-34 programs for Kraft, especially
    those with Deems Taylor as master of ceremonies. These are extremely
    classy programs -- the music is first-rate, featuring such talent as the
    Pickens Sisters, Johnny Mercer, and the wonderful Ramona. Taylor's
    commentary is clever and witty, and even the commercials are a lot of
    fun: the earnestness with which Howard Claney urges you to celebrate
    "National Cheese Week" makes you want to run right out and buy a wheel or
    two.

    Also recommended are Ben Bernie's 1935 Pabst Blue Ribbon programs --
    Bernie's "Ole Maestro" gimmick is an acquired taste, but he had an
    excellent mid-thirties mainstream dance band. Maybe not as good as his
    Brunswick "Hotel Roosevelt Orchestra" records from a few years earlier,
    but still enjoyable. And as smarmy as Bernie's on-air mannerisms can be,
    it's fun to hear him talk-singing the lyrics to some very strange novelty
    songs -- once you hear Bernie's performance of "I'd Like To Dunk You In
    My Coffee and Spread You On My Bread" you won't soon forget [removed]

    If you're in the right mood, the 1935 "Shell Chateau" series is also
    interesting. Al Jolson never really adjusted to radio, if you ask me --
    and the comedy monologues he does to open these programs are some of the
    most horrible schlock material ever written. But the music is fine, and
    some of the guests are interesting. Jolson's 1948-49 series with Oscar
    Levant is also fun, if only for the fact of such a bizarre pairing -- but
    Jolson is clearly past his prime.

    And, I also want to put in a good word for the WLS National Barn Dance.
    If you like old-school country music, these are great stuff, especially
    the few hour-long broadcasts which survive from 1937-39 (you'll find
    these in the Redmond Nostalgia catalog. Well worth hearing!!)

    Elizabeth

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:29:19 -0500
    From: jameshburns@[removed] (Jim Burns)
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Re: Frank Gorshin/George Burns

    Steve, I have to disagree with you, and agree with Gary!  As I posted
    here back in October, I felt that Gorshin, as an ACTOR, did exactly what
    he should have done:  captured enough of George Burns to make you
    "believe" the performane, and then PORTRAYED, dramatically and
    comedically,  the material.  (Gorshin even does some thing very subtle,
    missed by some of the New York critics, changing the timbre, and
    slghtly, timiing, of his voice, depending on what part of Burns' life
    he's relating.)

    Now, this will no doubt sound corny, but I actually thought that SAY
    GOODNIGHT, GRACIE'S denoument was a rather eloquent statement, on the
    pasage of [removed]

    Well, that  does sound corny!

    But it doesn't mean that it's not true!

    :-)

    Best, Jim Burns

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:33:00 -0500
    From: "B. J. Watkins" <kinseyfan@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  some REAL OLD time radio

    I thought some of you might be interested in hearing some early radio. On
    our next "Don't Touch that Dial" OTR show January 6 on KPFK, [removed] FM in Los
    Angeles, we'll be presenting a show from 1927 that we've been told is the
    only live air shot of a dance band remote before 1930.

    This is preceded by a broadcast of the ceremonies at Edison's estate on
    August 12, 1927 by station WOR of the 50th anniversary of the phonograph.
    Among the people you'll hear are Charles Edison, Thomas Edison, Governor A.
    Harry Moore (Governor of New Jersey), and announcer Louis A. Witten.

    Then Dave Kaplan and his Happiness Orchestra broadcasts dance music  live
    from the Essex County Country Club, Llewellyn Park, West Orange. During this
    time you'll also hear John B. Gambling talking about the "Edison Age",
    Edison's life, career and achievements.

    Our in-studio guest Brad Kay will be bringing other early recordings to fill
    the three-hour show, Monday midnight (Tuesday AM) Pacific Time. The show can
    be heard on the internet at [removed]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:00:31 -0500
    From: vigor16@[removed]
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  OTR on video

    Hey,
    I just ordered some great vintage tv from

    [removed]

    They seem to have a lot of otr related stuff including "I love a mystery"
    which I thought was hard to find.  The price is excelent.  The quality is
    one of the best I have seen.  They have movies featuring Benny, FM&M, the
    Shadow.  Westerns of all kinds.  It is a small company that prides itself
    in featuring OTR related  material.  May want to check it out.

    Deric

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:29:42 -0500
    From: "James Faulkner" <tsunami100@[removed];
    To: "[removed]" <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Steve Lewis' Remarks on George Burns

    After reading Mr. Lewis' response to the new "Say Goodnight Gracie" play on
    broadway, I am now reminded why there are critics, many of whom are horribly
    bad and rather unversed critics.  Mr. Lewis apparently forgets that this
    production was meant to be a salute and high modecum of respect for George
    Burns and Gracie Allen.  To the younger generations who were not privileged
    to have grown up during the life of the real life Burns and Allen, this is
    probably as close as those youngsters will ever get to the esteemed couple.
    I personally applaud any effort to pay due homage as best as can be done to
    any OTR figure, and to keep the memories alive.  Rather than kicking it and
    downgrading Mr. Goshin's acting ability, I only wish the performance was
    more available throughout the entire nation, for I surely would burst a door
    down to see it if it ever came into my neighborhood.  Respectfully, James
    Faulkner

    --------------------------------
    End of [removed] Digest V2002 Issue #510
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