------------------------------
The Old-Time Radio Digest!
Volume 2001 : Issue 349
A Part of the [removed]!
ISSN: 1533-9289
Today's Topics:
Marlene Dietrich [ Dick S Judge <dickjudge@[removed]; ]
Re: Network Rates [ Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed] ]
Ronnie & Benita [ Peter Kinder <pdkinder@[removed]; ]
Tape and CDs [ "Thomas Mason" <batz34@[removed] ]
Re: Marlene Dietrich on Duffy's Tave [ Joe Mackey <joemackey5@[removed]; ]
Re: Tapes vs. CDs [ John <JOHN007@[removed]; ]
Re: WOTW: Grovers Mill revisited [ passage@[removed] ]
Re: WRVO [ John <JOHN007@[removed]; ]
Print Through [ "Read G. Burgan" <rgb@[removed] ]
His Typewriter Grew Spurs [ "Donald & Kathleen Dean" <dxk@nfoli ]
FOTR and VOX POP [ Michael Henry <mlhenry@[removed]; ]
hop SKIP jump [ Sandy Singer <sinatradj@[removed]; ]
Radio & TV Skip [ Roger Lorette <webmaster@cyber49er. ]
Tape Versus CD Storage [ Henry Howard <hhoward@[removed] ]
tape vs. CD [ "Joe Salerno" <sergei01@[removed] ]
Grovers Mill, New Jersey [ Dennis W Crow <DCrow3@[removed] ]
WHY DID OTR "DIE" IN THE US? [ "Owens Pomeroy" <opomeroy@[removed]; ]
Re: Tape vs. CD Storage [ "James B. Wood, [removed]" <woodjim@ ]
Archie Andrews [ nicoll <nicoll@[removed]; ]
Until they make a time-machine radio [ neil crowley <og@[removed]; ]
Skip [ Carmelo Montalbano <carmelo@starpow ]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:49:43 -0500
From: Dick S Judge <dickjudge@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Marlene Dietrich
For Christian Blees, it is a good possibility that Marlene's appearance
on Duffy's Tavern was Mar 9, 1949.
dickjudge
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:51:29 -0500
From: Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Re: Network Rates
On 11/1/01 3:04 AM OldRadio Mailing Lists wrote:
But a network was often just the conveyance as many ad agencies seemed to be
the ones programming the networks with shows they owned. The network didn't
seems to care what was on the schedule as long as a certain amount of time
was sold. So what determined the asking price of the networks for their air
time?
This is a complicated question, because each network had a slightly
different system for calculating its rates, and these systems evolved
over the years. I'm going to base my answer on conditions as they existed
in 1938, because this is the year used by the authoritiative "Report On
Chain Broadcasting," issued by the FCC in 1941, in preparing its picture
of how network broadcasting was conducted. This report is based on sworn
testimony provided by network officials and on a detailed three-year
study of exactly how the broadcasting industry worked.
As of 1938 both NBC and CBS charged for air time on a per-station basis.
You didn't just walk in and buy an hour of time "on the network" -- you
had to basically *build* the network you were going to use, and you were
charged on a per-station basis. But it wasn't a totally a la carte
proposition either. You had to buy a "basic" network for starters -- a
group of stations that served as the foundation for your buy. There were
as of 1938 23 basic Red stations and 24 basic Blue stations associated
with NBC, extending from New England to Nebraska, north of the
Mason-Dixon line. Based on the standard 1935 rate card, which was still
in use in 1938, advertisers were charged $120 per hour for the smallest
stations used, $680 per hour for average-sized stations, $720 per hour
for WMAQ and WENR/WLS in Chicago, and $1200 per hour for WEAF and WJZ in
New York and WLW in Cincinnati. NBC set these local rates based primarily
on the "potential circulation" for each station's market, or the number
of potential (*not* actual) listeners in the area served by each station.
WLW, of course, was in the high-priced category because in 1938 it was
still "The Nation's Station," running half a million watts, and easily
audible coast to coast.
CBS had a similar but somewhat different geographical breakdown. As of
1938 the CBS rate card ranged from $125 per hour for low-powered rural
affiliates to $1250 per hour for high-powered metropolitan outlets. These
per-station rates were set by the network based on the power of each
station, the size of its market, its comparative popularity in that
market, and the station's own local rate card for national "spot"
advertising. Daytime rates were generally much lower than evening rates.
In dealing with both NBC and CBS, usuing the "basic" network as a
foundation, you then chose additional groups of stations, laid out
regionally, to build your network to the full extent your campaign
required. Many programs were sponsored by products with only a regional
market -- so coast-to-coast, border-to-border service was not always
needed. Many network programs were heard only in portions of the country,
and the basic-and-supplemental-network system made it easy to custom-fit
your network to the size of its market. You had to buy stations as
blocks, however, and not individually. If you needed additional, more
specific coverage after assembling a network, extension spotting of
recordings of your program was the best option.
Mutual, as always, had a different system. Its advertisers, comparatively
few as they were, paid the local rate-card rates for each of the stations
used, and then received a 3 1/2 per cent commission for handling the
sale. Local stations arranging business on behalf of the network would
get a 2 per cent commission for all network time sold. Mutual had no
control whatsoever over its national rates -- local rates were set by the
local stations.
As noted above, these systems evolved thru the years -- but the status of
the situation in 1938 gives a basic idea of how it worked.
Elizabeth
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:53:55 -0500
From: Peter Kinder <pdkinder@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Ronnie & Benita
On another list, the question's come up: Was Ronald Coleman
actually married to Benita? If so, was it she who appeared on the Benny
show? Did the Colemans live next to the Bennys?
Anyone have the answers?
Thanks,
Peter Kinder
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:05:18 -0500
From: "Thomas Mason" <batz34@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Tape and CDs
Being an old ABC-TV engineer, I am enjoying the discussion of tapes and CDs
very interesting. Times change, at ABC ,in video,we went from kinescope
recordings, to two inch analog tape, eventually working down to half inch
tape, then digital taping, and now a lot of the newer portable cameras have
the ability to record on a small disc within the camera itself. Who knows
what will be next?
With the advent of the recordable audio CDRs, I have transferred a lot of my
old taped radio shows to them and it is certainly an inexpensive medium to
use now that the CDRs are as low as 10-20 cents each in bulk. Talking to
some of the engineers in the audio library at ABC, they advocated storing
the tapes tails out also and never really gave a reason for doing so, other
than "it was better", but nine times out of ten they never followed their
own advice. In the old days they used to buy a type of Scotch tape that had
a different emulsion on it that helped to keep print-through down to a
minimum, but it is the nature of the medium that print-through happens over
time. There is also the undeniable fact that tape makes contact with the
playback head as it runs, and that involves friction and therefore wear.
Eventually they will lose frequency response and wear out. At ABC Hlywd, we
no longer buy tape on reels, and use cassettes for making tapes that
performers can take home with them to review their performances, and even
cassettes are beginning to slowly disappear now that CDRs are coming into
wide use and equipment is installed for them in the studios.
Only a laser touches the CDR, and theoretically there is no wear and
properly cared for, the medium should last for many years. I know that I no
longer buy tapes commercially, and I have had little or no failures with CDs
or CDRs. Only time will tell how durable they are, but right now they look
pretty good.
Tom Mason
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:05:43 -0500
From: Joe Mackey <joemackey5@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: Marlene Dietrich on Duffy's Tavern
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:49:07 -0500
From: "Christian Blees" <christian-blees@[removed];
Subject: Marlene Dietrich on Duffy's Tavern
I have got a tape from a Duffy's Tavern episode with Marlene Dietrich as
guest but don't know from which date. Does anybody know when this particular
episode was boadcast?
I have a date of 3/2/49 for a show where Archie is writing a tv script
and Dietrich appears. I also have the same date for a show where Mickey
Rooney appeared.
Sometimes finding a good log is difficult, at least for free. :)
Joe
--
Visit my home page:
[removed]~[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:02:13 -0500
From: John <JOHN007@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: Tapes vs. CDs
Doug asks:
...about storing tapes "tails out" ... How is> it that storing the tapes
this way prevents print-through?
Doug, winding tapes tails out isn't (that I've ever heard) thought to
*prevent* print-through, but the idea is that if the tape is wound tails
out, the print through will appear as echo (which sounds natural to our
ears), as opposed to "pre-cho" (an "echo" that comes *before* the
sound), which sound very weird and distracting.
In normal professional practice (at least in my experience down through
20+ years), tapes are traditionally stored tails out for this reason.
Happy Listening!
John
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:02:33 -0500
From: passage@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: WOTW: Grovers Mill revisited
Michael Hayde asked:
Anybody here ever visit the place?
As a matter of fact, I did, just this past Sunday. My son had an away
soccer game against West Windsor, where Grover's Mill is located. So,
after the game, I dragged him there. Got to see the monument on a
crisp, Fall day, just at twilight. Kinda neat, seeing the monument and
then looking past it at the pond. A fun visit. Well worth hunting out
for
us OTR fans. I was glad that my 13 year old son thought enough of it to
mention it to his friends.
I learned later that Elsie the Cow's grave marker is in the next town.
It was a bit of a shock to learn my son never heard of Elsie <grin>.
Well, at least he knows who Orson Welles is :-).
Frank
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:02:53 -0500
From: John <JOHN007@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: WRVO
I just have to add my thanks to WRVO to those of the other posters.
The manager (I believe it was) of WRVO used to be on this list, and I
hope he is still here in order to read these posts.
WRVO is the only place I know on the internet where you can go to hear a
live block of OTR each night (though there surely are others -- many are
too late for us east-coasters), and the programs are very well selected
and presented, too. In this day of big bucks talk-talk-talk shows,
WRVO is to be congratulated on keeping OTR alive and well.
THANKS WRVO! We appreciate your committemnt to OTR!
Happy Listening!
John
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:03:26 -0500
From: "Read G. Burgan" <rgb@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Print Through
The question has been raised about reel-to-reel tapes and print through.
Radio stations and other professional users of reel-to-reel tape often
stored their tapes tails out because playing a tape through at normal speed
assures a tight even wind on the tape and that is the easiest way to insure
that the tape pack is tightly wound. When tape is fast forwarded or
rewound, the tape pack is more loosely wound. This can allow the edges to
cup, etc.
However, there are other ways of achieving the same goal. I have a Teac
X-2000 reel-to-reel machine that has a "spooling" mode that allows the tape
to be re-wound with a tension that achieves the same kind of tight tape
pack. And if you have reels that are recorded in two or four track so that
you end up "back at the beginning" when you are through playing it, you have
essentially achieved the same kind of tight pack that you would if you left
the tape tail out.
Having said that, as long as the tape has been left tightly wound, the
tendency for print through to occur should be no more or less if the tape is
tail out or tail in.
Prevailing wisdom also suggests that reel-to-reel tape and cassettes should
be fast forwarded and rewound every few years. I doubt if very many
archives with large holdings actually achieve this goal.
Read Burgan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:03:48 -0500
From: "Donald & Kathleen Dean" <dxk@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: His Typewriter Grew Spurs
In the last Digest, Don Taylor mentioned a book he was wanting
to get for his mother. I'm sure you'll get lots of responses on
this, Don.
Sometime back I think I remember seeing a mention of a book either
written *by* Fran Striker (script writer for The Lone Ranger, Green
Hornet, Challenge of the Yukon and others) or written *about* him by
one of his children. Can anyone tell me the name of the book/author,
and where my mom can obtain it?
I think the book you're speaking of is His Typewriter Grew Spurs
A biography of Fran Striker - writer. Documenting the Lone Ranger's
ride on the radiowaves of the world. By Fran Striker, Jr. I got mine at
the FOTR Convention in Newark on November 12, 1983 and personally
signed by Fran, Jr. He was there promoting the book as he just finished
it that year. It contains 143 pages with photos and 1 complete script from
December 1932. According to the inside back page you can order copies
of this book from the publisher. QUESTCO [removed] Box 832 Lansdale, Pa.
19446
Don Dean - N8IOJ
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:04:27 -0500
From: Michael Henry <mlhenry@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: FOTR and VOX POP
I would like to thank everyone on the Digest who attended
my VOX POP presentation ("Vox Pop Goes to War: The Wartime
Travels of Parks Johnson") at FOTR on Saturday. Thanks also
go to Bryan Wright for mentioning it in his recent posting.
I would also like to thank Jay and the FOTR committee for
awarding me Allen Rockford award this year. OTR is my
passion and it means alot to me to be able to contribute to
the hobby. I am humbled to share the honor with such people
as Jack French, Charlie Summers, and the many other noted
contributors to OTR.
For those of you who are not familiar with VOX POP, it was
created in 1932 by Parks Johnson as a sidewalk interview
show. It evolved into a combination interview and quiz show.
Originally heard locally in Houston, Texas on station KTRH,
it moved to NBC in 1935 as a summer replacement for Joe
Penner. It stayed with NBC until 1939 when it began a long
association with CBS. Over the years, it was sponsored by
Molle Shaving Cream, Kentucky Club Tobacco, and Bromo
Seltzer. During the war, it traveled to almost 300 military
bases, training camps, hospitals, and war plants,
interviewing servicemen and women and others involved in the
war effort. The surviving recordings are a valuable oral
history of the war years.
In 1996, the Library of American Broadcasting received
Parks Johnson's papers from his son William Johnson. Parks
was an historian's dream come true. He saved EVERYTHING!
The collection includes 2,000 photographs, business
correspondence, scrapbooks, promotional material, extensive
notebooks documenting each broadcast, and 400 transcription
discs. For more information on the collection go to:
[removed]
We do not have reference copies for most of the
transcriptions, but we are always looking for the funds and
manpower to be able to get the work done. If anyone on the
list can help us raise the funds or suggest someone who
could assist with the transferring, please contact me off
list. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Also, if anyone knows of other VOX POP recordings that may
be in circulation, please let me know. It would be great to
find out whether or not what we have is unique or merely
duplicates what is already out there.
Lastly, if you know of any WWII veterans who may have been
interviewed on the show, please let me know. The interviews
are such a great historical document of the period that I
would love to find out what happened to those interviewed
on the show.
Thanks.
-Michael Henry
Library of American Broadcasting
and
Metropolitan Washington Old Time Radio Club
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:04:49 -0500
From: Sandy Singer <sinatradj@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: hop SKIP jump
Maybe a technical person can figure THIS one out -- I watched channel 2,
Bangor, Maine one day around noon on a television set [no antenna] in
Peoria, Illinois.
Sandy Singer
A DATE WITH SINATRA
SandySinger@[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:05:03 -0500
From: Roger Lorette <webmaster@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Radio & TV Skip
On many occasions I've been able to pick up FM radio stations from great
distance. About 20 years ago I happened to notice that on the particular day
I was enjoying a new FM station at nearly every point on the dial also
coincided with one on the anual meteor showers that we experience. This was
in the month of august. Since I heard there was to be another meteor shower
in october I waited for that day to see if once again the "skipoping" would
[removed] was not dissappointed! Nowadays I'm not as avid a radio listener
as I once was (now I have my OTR) so I haven't picked up on the skip for
quite some time. But I suggest listening to the news to find out when the
next meteor shower will occur then tune in on the scheduled day!
Roger Lorette
webmaster@[removed]
The Old Time Radio Archive
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:20:40 -0500
From: Henry Howard <hhoward@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Tape Versus CD Storage
Shawn ask "how many of you out there have ever worn out a CD?"
If you are referring to a glass master cd, I have seen a few get
scratched to the point they were not usable.
If, on the other hand, we are talking about CDRs, yes I have seen
a number of them come up unreadable. I treat my cd masters the
same way I treat my tape masters (and I am talking about studio
productions which constitute my living). I have had more than I
want to think about come up with glitches (not physical scratches
or other visible damage) that cause them to be un readable.
Properly stored magnetic tape has a proven track record.
CDRs have no LONG term track record. In addition, when
a CDR goes south, it's usually all gone. Even damaged tape has some
chance of being salvaged.
If you are going to store on CDR, I would highly recommend burn
more than one copy, and use more than one brand of disc if
the material is important. If it's just a collection for your entertainment,
then burn one and treat it well.
Henry Howard 770 923 7955
Audio Production for entertainment
and communications.
[removed]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:21:28 -0500
From: "Joe Salerno" <sergei01@[removed];
To: "OTR List" <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: tape vs. CD
A question was asked:
How is it that storing the tapes this way prevents print-through?
Answer: It doesn't. What it does is cause the print through to be masked by
the signal so that it will be inaudible. If a tape is wound heads up (ready
to thread and play) the print through will be a pre-echo. If tails out, the
echo will be post signal and masked by the program content.
Regarding tape life, I have tapes from the 60s that work fine, and some from
the 70s and 80s that suffer from sticky-shed syndrome. They are not fine.
Tape from different periods will not all age the same way.
Joe Salerno
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:22:02 -0500
From: Dennis W Crow <DCrow3@[removed];
To: OTR Digest <[removed]@[removed];
Subject: Grovers Mill, New Jersey
Michael Hayde asks about Grovers Mill; " Anyone ever visit the place?" he
queries.
Well I haven't been to Grovers Mill, but a friend of mine attended the
50th anniversary of the Martian landing in Grovers Mill in 1988. "What a
party," she says.
She sent me photographs of the commemorative plaque, located in Van Nest
Park which is in West Windsor Township where Grovers Mill is situated.
The statue shows one of the spacecraft, Orson Welles at his music stand
with his ear cupped, and a small family huddled around a cathedral radio.
There's a description of the event but I can't read it. It is quite
imposing.
Dennis Crow
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:21:05 -0500
From: "Owens Pomeroy" <opomeroy@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: WHY DID OTR "DIE" IN THE US?
Can anyone on the thread tell me why America is the only country in the
World that is not currently broadcasting the kind of radio we were familiar
with on a Network basis (CBS, NBC, ABC, Mutual, etc.) I have email friends
all over the world, and I ask them about Radio Drama, Variety, Comedy, Kid
Shows, etc. And they tell me it is still "going strong" there. Why did we
allow it to dissapear from the scene in favor of all-talk, or top 40, or
just plain junk. True we have only smidgens of shows, courtesy of
Yesterday, USA, Bobb Lynes & Barbara Sunday and their "Don't Touch Thay
Dial," and I believe a show by Chuck Shaden. All of these are very good
programs, but are on limited basis and are replays of the originals that
are only available in certain areas (not syndicated). Baltimore has nothing
in the way of OTR like the above mentioned, with the exception of a show
from DC that was started by John Hickman in 1972 called "Recollections" and
later "The Big Broadcast" hosted by WMAL personality, Ed Walker. Outside of
that we have nada.
I know it would be like "whipping a dead horse" to bring it back - but why
did it have to "die such a painful death" in the first place? I have heard
reasons from "not economically feasible" to "no one listens to that kind of
drivile, today". So what is the answer? Who was to blame? The listener?
The Brodcasters, The performers, The sponsors? If it can work "over there,"
than why in the world could it not work "over here?"
I bet you that if someone who is "in the chips" that loves OTR, would buy a
station, and start staffing it with those of his (or her) kind that love it
as well, and start hiring actors old and new, it would be a start in the
right direction - or - has this been tried before?
Now, do any of you have any thoughts on this?
Owens
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:24:12 -0500
From: "James B. Wood, [removed]" <woodjim@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: Tape vs. CD Storage
Shawn Wells challenged:
Seriously now, you can't actually believe that
magnetic tape would outlast a compact disc?
A bit too early to tell yet. I've got tapes from the late-40s that
sound as good as the day they were made (which wasn't all that great,
[removed]), yet none of my CD's are more than about 20 years old. I had one
commercial CD, purchased at Tower Records about 10 years ago, warp all by
itself so as to be unplayable. I also got a CD-ROM with a digital camera
that came warped because of how it was packed.
Doubtless the future will bring more clever ways to store audio, but
the
trend seems to be toward higher packing densities. MP3 or any of the
other 'lossy' or, for that matter 'lossless' data-reduction techniques
constitute an effort to reduce the size of the file with a tradeoff
either of audio quality or file fragility. Putting one's entire
collection of OTR onto one DVD-R would, in my opinion, be courting
disaster. Like the proverbial eggs in one basket, a valuable collection
ought to be spread out somewhat.
Jim Wood
Brea, CA
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:24:25 -0500
From: nicoll <nicoll@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Archie Andrews
Our friend, Archie Andrews, made the pages of MM - Modern Maturity magazine
this month. He's on page 96 - The Big Uh-Oh page that list well known
people's ages as they turn over another decade (50-60-70-80).
Listed under "60"
"Archie Andrews
All-American Teen
November 4"
Will Nicoll
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 17:24:58 -0500
From: neil crowley <og@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Until they make a time-machine radio
From: "[removed]" <swells@[removed];
I would venture a little speculation here about audio/video tape. There
is no doubt in my mind that within the next few years that tape, in any
format, will be replaced for good. Now it may not be compact discs and DVD's
that do it.
------------------------------
Shawn makes a good point about the inexorable march of technology - the
latest technology rapidly deceases into the late technology. Tape, like
film, is already moribund.
I don't suppose the recording media arguments will ever end but for
practical reasons MP3 cd's make the most sense for those who listen to OTR
for pleasure. Archivists and scholars have more serious concerns; the rest
of us just go with whatever's currently available and convenient.
Perhaps the best solution for OTR collectors is a second large hard disk.
But even the multi-megabyte drives available today seem too small. In a few
years, when we get to terabyte capacity hard disks at a decent price, maybe
portable firewire cartridges, cd's will go the way of the floppy disk. It
won't be long before you can carry an entire large collection of OTR, and
maybe all your digital movies, in your shirt pocket, next to your heart
where they belong. Beats cigarettes.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 19:15:18 -0500
From: Carmelo Montalbano <carmelo@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Skip
Owens writes:
>>I wonder if anyone on the thread has had a similar
>>experience of receiving broadcasts outside of your
>>listening area?
As a ham radio operator, skip, caused by the ionization peaks during the
height of the sunspot cycles. It's fun because with just a little power
(say 5 watts) I have travelled over 1000 miles and it has been recorded
that folks have traveled from NY to London on a single watt.
Using a GE Superadio I have picked up skipped stations from as far away as
Texas.
BTW, a great thing about otr radios was that they had connections to
attach long antennas from the back. Still works today if you need to pick
up distance or a better signal. Or go to radio shack for one of their
dimensional tuning antenna.
--------------------------------
End of [removed] Digest V2001 Issue #349
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