Subject: [removed] Digest V2003 #453
From: <[removed]@[removed]>
Date: 12/22/2003 7:05 AM

To: <[removed]@[removed];

    ------------------------------

                                The Old-Time Radio Digest!
                                  Volume 2003 : Issue 453
                             A Part of the [removed]!
                                     ISSN: 1533-9289

                                     Today's Topics:

      Words and Values                      [ "Irene Heinstein" <IreneTH@[removed] ]
      12-22 births/deaths                   [ Ron Sayles <bogusotr@[removed]; ]
      Charles Herrold                       [ George Aust <austhaus1@[removed] ]
      Dickens On Radio                      [ "John Eccles, Jr." <jeccles@earthli ]
      Re:Gildersleeve and "make love"       [ Ed Foster <erfoster@[removed]; ]
      DICKENS on OTR                        [ "mike kerezman" <philipmarlowe@cfai ]
      Send that kid to camp!!!              [ "MICHAEL BIEL" <mbiel@[removed]; ]
      #@$$#@! &%&%@*$$!                     [ "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@ ]
      Re: OTR Profanity, What have we lear  [ Joe Mackey <joemackey108@[removed] ]
      Dickens on the Radio                  [ <welsa@[removed]; ]
      Re: A&A Audition Recordings           [ Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed] ]
      Tomart's Radio Premium Price Guide    [ "Charles Sexton" <csexton@[removed] ]
      Cpt Midnight Cryptological Premiums   [ "Dennis Mansker" <dennis@[removed] ]
      The other Walton elder                [ MGiorgio1@[removed] ]
      Today in radio history                [ Joe Mackey <joemackey108@[removed] ]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:33:15 -0500
    From: "Irene Heinstein" <IreneTH@[removed];
    To: "OTR" <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Words and Values

    Some personal feelings and comments about the discussion thread regarding
    language, family values, and the like.  I just read about 8 newsletters in a
    row and felt like I wanted to say something on the subject.

    I was born in 1938 and like most everyone else was a movie addict as well as
    a radio addict.   I've often said that the Hollywood ending might have
    contributed to some of my unrealistically naive ideas and expectations about
    life, which caused me some problems as I grew older and more 'worldly.'
    Life wasn't as simple or straightforward as I thought.  And, more
    importantly, one couldn't count on always being rewarded for doing the right
    thing.

    That doesn't take away from my enjoyment retroactively or currently,
    however.  I choose to view all those old movies as 'entertainment', not
    truth and still remember them fondly and enjoy them as much when I watch
    them again, only a little wiser now.

    The same is true about radio.   I just wish I had known a little more about
    how life was for many other people, not just those lucky ones in the movies,
    and known that it didn't always turn out all right, and that people didn't
    always do the right things for other people, and that  there were a lot of
    people out there for whom life was hard, and without much promise of getting
    better.   And while prayer was a good thing it could not always do enough to
    offset reality.

    We seem to forget that the images sent out over the airwaves and in the
    films were of a select group of people for the most part,  what might be
    called the target audience of the times.   One of the most religious groups
    of people were southern Blacks and their religion spoke of a beautiful
    afterlife a lot, where their peity would be rewarded because it was hard for
    them to imagine a better life in the segregated South, which made their
    daily life harsh without the opportunities for growth and prosperity that
    the white population enjoyed.

    I think there has been a great deal of anecdotal comment on this subject.
    Somehow, if one's parents or grandparents had a particular experience it is
    being projected on too large a population.    This always leads in my
    opinion to a narrow, limited view of life which involves too much judgment
    and not enough compassion.

    Elizabeth was talking about a reality in her family which countered many of
    the images we've projected on the past.   Just because one's family did not
    have that experience does not make her experience invalid or singular.  It's
    called opening one's mind to a broader reality.

    As a sidebar to this discussion:  this same use of anecdotal material still
    leads many people to think that because they were able to do x anyone should
    be.    My parents were immigrants from Greece and my father did well.    He
    never assumed everyone could do exactly what he did and never judged them on
    that basis.   I adopted his understanding on that subject.

    We did not cuss in my family however as kids we did say hell and damn to
    each other.  And we were all good kids, living in a relatively affluent,
    conservative,  suburban  community.

       When I was attending catechism class the Sister actually told us that
    saying damn or hell was not cursing unless we damned someone or told someone
    to go to hell.   We took her words to heart and freely said damn and hell by
    themselves, but not at home since parents would probably not buy her
    position even if she was a nun  :))  And this was in the 50s in the
    conservative diocese of Cardinal Spellman where we left mass on Sunday and
    took home the latest list of books and films we shouldn't see (which of
    course made us very interested in seeing them).

    I entered college in 1956 at Ohio Wesleyan University in Delaware, Ohio
    which had an affiliation with the Methodist Church.   I was surprised to
    find that the humor there often consisted of blasphemous joking followed
    with comments about being struck down by lightning with a dramatic
    protective gesture, with eyes lifted toward Heaven.

    I don't care for excessive use of hard, harsh language and wish it wasn't so
    prevalent and overused but it is true to life for very many people.   The
    Sopranos is an excellent program and I have learned to block out the F word
    that is so prevalent in the dialogue because there is so much quality to the
    drama itself.

    I also don't care for excessive violence.    I recently saw 'The Last
    Samurai' which I enjoyed for the most part but was very uncomfortable with
    the violence and resorted to the peeking through my fingers approach to
    violent or scary scenes of my youth.

     Interestingly,  I've heard more about language then violence in this
    discussion.   I do subscribe to the gratuitous concept regarding language,
    sex and violence in films.    To the extent that it is necessary to the
    reality I don't oppose it, but to suggest it should not be used at all is to
    suggest that only idealized pictures of life should be produced.    I enjoy
    inspirational shows like 'Touched by an Angel' but there must also be a
    place for more reality-based entertainment and even if one makes a personal
    choice to not view such entertainment I would hope that they realize it's a
    personal choice and doesn't need to be a judgment on society, and a wish for
    the sanitized 'good old days' when ignorance was bliss.

    One last soapbox message.  Religion was different when I was a kid.
    Everyone went to church and we had many denominations but no one judged the
    beliefs of others nor attempted to impose them on others.   This is a big
    change now.   I used to view religion as a wholly positive influence on
    people and a necessary part of their life.   I don't feel the same in the
    current world where many religious people not only judge intolerantly, but
    wish to make a multi-cultural population conform to their beliefs.   So my
    wishes for the good old days are for the days when religion was about doing
    good and caring for those in need, not judging and condemning.

    When I've been down and feeling out of sorts with reality I find the
    simplicity of uncomplicated stories comforting, because I want to be
    comforted  and take a break from reality for a while, but I could never
    exist with a full diet of that idealized reality.   I find many of the
    Family Theater stories too saccharine and simplistic for my taste but enjoy
    some of them.

    As for 'sacre bleu' it is an interjection and not translatable by the actual
    meaning of those words.   It actually means 'Holy Jesus' or 'Holy God' or
    even 'Holy Cow' in that context.   It is still in active use.

    A friend of mine in high school, a very mischievous guy, [now in the upper
    echelons of the Episcopal Church in Chicago!] found out that the Greek word
    for s**t was 'Skata', circulated that word among our friends at school and
    we all enjoyed our private little joke, and the fact that we were swearing
    and no one knew it.   [Mine was the only Greek family in town so it was
    assumed we wouldn't get caught so long as we didn't say it around my
    parents.  :))]

    Anyway, enough.

    Happy holidays to all of you.   Unfortunately my husband had a stroke last
    Sunday but his prognosis for full recovery is excellent.  But watching my
    children and extended family pull together and take bedside shifts, holding
    my husband's hand, reassuring and loving him, made me so proud and
    reinforced my faith in my family and the way we chose to raise them out here
    in Berkeley.

    -Irene

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 15:33:57 -0500
    From: Ron Sayles <bogusotr@[removed];
    To: Olde Tyme Radio List <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  12-22 births/deaths

    December 22nd births

    12-22-1885 - Deems Taylor - NYC - d. 7-3-1966
    commentator: "Deems Taylor Music Series"; "Prudential Family Hour"; "RCA
    Victor Show"
    12-22-1901 - Andre Kostelanetz - St. Petersburg, Russia - d. 1-13-1980
    conductor: "Chesterfield Hour"; "Light Up Time"; "Pause That Refreshes"
    12-22-1907 - Dame Peggy Ashcroft - London, England - d. 6-14-1991
    actress: BBC "Queen Victoria"
    12-22-1917 - Gene Rayburn - Christopher, IL (R: Chicago, IL)
    announcer, comedian: "Rayburn and Finch"
    12-22-1924 - Ruth Roman - Boston, MA - d. 9-9-1999
    actress: "Lux Radio Theatre"; "Hollywood Sound Stage"

    December 22nd deaths

    01-08-1911 - Butterfly McQueen - Tampa, FL - d. 12-22-1995
    actress: Oriole "Beulah"; Butterfly "Jack Benny Program"
    03-25-1887 - Raymond Gram Swing - Cortland, NY - d. 12-22-1968
    commentator: "Voice of America"
    05-24-1902 - Wilbur Hatch - Moken, IL - d. 12-22-1969
    conductor: "Our Miss Brooks"; "Gateway to Hollywood"; "Screen Guild Theatre"
    08-27-1901 - Al Ritz - Newark, NJ - d. 12-22-1965
    comedian: (The Ritz Brothers) "Hollywood Hotel"
    09-05-1907 - Jimmy Wallington - Rochester, NY - d. 12-22-1972
    announcer: "Chase & Sanborn Hour"; "Texaco Town/Star Theatre"; "Alan Young
    Show"
    12-17-1919 - Edward "Shrimp" Wragge - NYC - d. 12-22-1992
    actor: "Gold Spot Pal"

    Ron Sayles
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:07:59 -0500
    From: George Aust <austhaus1@[removed];
    To: OTR Digest <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Charles Herrold

    I've just finished reading the new book "Charles Herrold,
    Inventor of Radio Broadcasting" by Gordon Greb and Mike Adams.
    I enjoyed it very much and it seems to make a very strong
    case for Herrold in San Jose California, being the first
    broadcasting station in the world. Beginning in 1909
    experimentally and then in 1912 providing regularly scheduled
    programing of talk, news, and music (phonograph records and
    occasional live music) and even a very early form of
    advertising up to WWI, and then again after goverment allowed
    radio stations back on air following war.
    Herrold's station KQW still exists as KCBS in San Francisco. I
    think this book blows away all the claims by other stations,
    such as KDKA, away at least as far as being first to
    broadcast a regularly scheduled program goes.

    George Aust

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:08:05 -0500
    From: "John Eccles, Jr." <jeccles@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Dickens On Radio

    There was also a one-hour adaptation of "David Copperfield" performed on
    Theatre Guild On The Air with Richard Burton, Cyril Ritchard, and Boris
    Karloff broadcast 12/24/50.

    John Eccles, Jr.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:09:05 -0500
    From: Ed Foster <erfoster@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Re:Gildersleeve and "make love"

    Rich Weil wrote

>     In the episode
>     Leroy mentions to Gildy that they may be making love and at one point Gildy,
>     who is protective of his sister-in-law, asks Judge Hooker if they have made
>     love. By today's standards I take making love to mean sexual intercourse. In
>     those relatively prudish times it seems out of line that they would be so
>     forward to discuss intercourse so openly, so I was wondering if it meant
>     something different back then? Perhaps just smooching?

    Take a look at the lyrics to the Jo Stafford song "Make Love to Me"
    from 1954 [removed]
    and you'll get a pretty good Idea of what "making love" meant in
    those days.  Smooching, but not sex.  Sometime between then (or even
    after 1960 when the movie "Let's Make Love" came out) and now the
    meaning changed, but I don't know when and I've lived through it.
    --
    Ed Foster
    erfoster@[removed]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:09:18 -0500
    From: "mike kerezman" <philipmarlowe@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  DICKENS on OTR

    A good source to look is the Mercury Theater / Cambell Playhouse. I believe
    Orson Welles did several adaptations of Charles Dickens including

    TALE OF TWO CITIES
    THE PICKWICK PAPERS

    These are available at [removed]

    Also I would check out LUX RADIO THEATER which I believe did some
    adaptations of film adaptations of Dickens work.

    Mike Kerezman
    Macomb, Ok

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:10:05 -0500
    From: "MICHAEL BIEL" <mbiel@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Send that kid to camp!!!

    From: Doug Berryhill <fibbermac@[removed];

>     I've decided to call these two camps "The Priggish Prudes"
>     and "The Sons of Sea-Cooks".  . . .  I guess I'll call camp
>     Number Three "The Old Fools", who foolish think that maybe
>     someday Camps One and Two will peacefully co-exist.
>     -FIBBERMAC-

    Then, of course, there is also Kamp Kee-Mo-Sah-Bee.

>     [removed] I'd like to wish a very Merry Christmas to all you Digesters
>     out there in Camp Three,...also to those of you in Camps One
>     and Two who aren't offended by such a greeting. :)

    At the risk of opening the rest of this can of worms, let me mention that
    you might also want to wish some of us campers a Happy Chanukah.  And
    perhaps also Kwanza and Eids.  Festivus, anyone?

    Michael (Camp To-Ho-Ne) Biel  mbiel@[removed]

    [removed]  While typing out the name of Kamp Kee-Mo-Sah-Bee (which really did
    exist, Jim Jewell's father in law ran it from 1911 to 1940) I realized that
    our university's retired soccer coach, who is a neighbor of mine, is
    Mohammed Sabie.  I'll have to ask Mo if he has their phone listed in his
    wife's name because he was tired of prank calls asking him if he had a key!

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:52:54 -0500
    From: "Stephen A Kallis, Jr." <skallisjr@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  #@$$#@!  &%&%@*$$!

    Doug Berryhill, speaking of epithetic language, differentiates,

>     Digest members appear to belong to either one of two camps on this
>     issue.

    <snip>

>     You may be a "The Priggish Prude" if your grandfather never allowed cursing
>     under his roof. But if your grandfather swore like a pirate, you may be a
>     "Son of a Sea-Cook".

    <snip>

>     I guess there is a third camp you may fall into. If you think that
>     debates over censorship, religion/religious programing, poverty/standard
>     of living issues, and prejudice were being hotly debated throughout the
>     golden age of radio, then you may fall into this third catagory. Camp
>     Number Three consists of those of us in the hobby who actually listen to
>     these programs and take them at face value.

    There may be a fourth category: those of us who listened to the
    broadcasts when they were first aired, and took them as they came.  This
    would be akin to Group Three, but different in that when we hear old
    broadcasts again, we tend to let the nostalgia kick in.  I received a
    private communication from a Digest contributor speculating on what
    Chester A. Reilly would say today in lieu of "What a revoltin'
    development this is!"   While I provided him with a salty alternative to
    a suggested expression, equally salty, I believe that Reilly probably
    would stick with his original expression, given his associates.  On the
    other hand, I can see far different linguistics on a modernized Pat Novak
    For Hire.

    Actually, radio dialogue at its best is pretty artificial anyway.  "Oh.
    A gun.  Do you think that will stop me?" .Good radio dialogue, but "Do
    you think _that_ will stop me?" would be the closest real-life
    equivalent.  So the expectation that a modern equivalent would be more
    "realistic" by adding a bit of salt to the mix is to miss the point.

    Stephen A. Kallis, Jr.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:53:07 -0500
    From: Joe Mackey <joemackey108@[removed];
    To: otrd <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Re: OTR Profanity, What have we learned?

       Doug Berryhill wrote --

     >  You may be a "The Priggish Prude"

       Mark me solidly in that corner.  :)
       Joe (proud to be a PP)  [Can I write that in a family forum?] <g>

    --
    Visit my homepage:  [removed]~[removed]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:56:25 -0500
    From: <welsa@[removed];
    To: "OTR Digest" <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Dickens on the Radio

    Let us not forget that not only were Dickens stories on the radio, but in
    one instance I know of, Dickens himself was a character.  On the Cape Cod
    Mystery series (latter day radio) there is a story called The Case of the
    Murdered Miser.  Dickens plays a young reporter at a murder trial.  No, I
    won't give any more plot info.

    Ted

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 19:58:13 -0500
    From: Elizabeth McLeod <lizmcl@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Re: A&A Audition Recordings

    On 12/21/03 3:49 PM [removed]@[removed] wrote:

>     To my surprise, there
>     was an 11-minute selection called "Auditions for
>     30-minute show" (1943. The candidates for the
>     principal roles were not Freeman Gosden and Charles
>     Corell but Fred Carter and Stanley Green, then Emory
>     Richardson and Alvin Childress. What, I wonder, was
>     that all about?

    These are incorrectly-dated voice test recordings from 1949, when casting
    was in progress for the A&A television series. Since a necessary element
    of casting the program was to find actors who not only looked the parts
    but who could closely duplicate Correll and Gosden's radio voices,
    hundreds of recordings like these were made during the summer and fall of
    1949. Alvin Childress, who had come to Correll and Gosden's attention for
    his work with the American Negro Theatre, was the first performer hired
    for the TV series when casting began, and spent much of 1949-50 aiding in
    the search for actors to fill out other roles in the series.

    Elizabeth

    ------------------------------

    Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:03:30 -0500
    From: "Charles Sexton" <csexton@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Tomart's Radio Premium Price Guide
    X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative
    X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain

    The "Tomart Price Guide to Radio Premium and Cereal Box Collectibles" is still
    available directly from the publisher.  Log on to [removed] and check
    their mail order lists of books available.  Price is $[removed]  Even though its
    a 13 year old book now, it's still the best ever published on the subject.
    You won't be disappointed!

    Charles Sexton

      *** This message was altered by the server, and may not appear ***
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    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 00:11:36 -0500
    From: "Dennis Mansker" <dennis@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Cpt Midnight Cryptological Premiums

    Ah, how distinctly I recall saving my Ovaltine seals until I had the
    requisite number (what that was I don't remember), then waiting what seemed
    like weeks for my decoder to arrive. Naturally it arrived on a Monday, so I
    had to wait until the following Saturday to get my secret message from Capt
    Midnight.
    Finally, after a week of torture, it was here! Saturday! I waited on pins
    and needles, a number two pencil in my eight-year-old hand and a Big Chief
    tablet on my lap, through the tedious and predictable plot, and finally it
    was there! This week's secret message!
    I copied it down carefully and then I began to apply the secret decoder to
    it. The letters began to fall into place, inexorably, one after another,
    until finally it was done. I had it, the secret [removed]
    "Be sure to drink Ovaltine every day"...
    What??? THAT was it??? I went through all of this for [removed]
    I was incensed. I wanted a real secret message, one that none of my friend
    would have without getting their own decoder. Instead I got a plug for
    Ovaltine. I didn't even really LIKE Ovaltine.
    Later I told my father about my disappointment. His response? "Life isn't
    fair, kid. Get used to it."

    Dennis Mansker

    The Mansker Chronicles: [removed]
    Chairborne Ranger, featuring A Bad Attitude: A Novel from the Vietnam War:
    [removed]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 02:01:24 -0500
    From: MGiorgio1@[removed]
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  The other Walton elder
    X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative
    X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain

    Hi all,

    The discussion of the Depression (I promise, this isn't a post on that) and
    the Waltons, along with Howard Blue's mention of Will Geer's extensive radio
    work, prompts me to ask if anyone knows of any radio work done by Geer's TV
    wife, Ellen Corby.  I would think that, since she was an Oscar nominated
    actress
    (Supporting Actress, I Remember Mama) and appeared in many films of the era,
    that some radio program somewhere must have featured her, but so far I've
    found
    nothing.  Does anyone know of any appearances?

    Thanks in advance, and happy holidays,
    Michael Giorgio
    Waukesha, WI

      *** This message was altered by the server, and may not appear ***
      ***                  as the sender intended.                   ***

    ------------------------------

    Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:59:20 -0500
    From: Joe Mackey <joemackey108@[removed];
    To: otrd <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Today in radio history

     From Those Were The Days --

    1920 - WEAF, in New York City, aired the first broadcast of a prize
    fight from ringside. The fight was broadcast from Madison Square Garden
    where Joe Lynch defeated Peter Herman to retain the bantamweight title.
    Bantamweights top the scales at 118 pounds. Just think, either of those
    boxers could have been mistaken for the microphone stand.

    1922 - WEAF once again proved to be the pillar of radio promotion. This
    time they broadcast radio's first double wedding ceremony. 4,000
    spectators watched as the two couples exchanged vows at Grand Central
    Palace. The broadcast was made in conjunction with the American Radio
    Exposition. The couples each got $100; a hefty sum in 1922.

    Joe

    --
    Visit my homepage:  [removed]~[removed]

    --------------------------------
    End of [removed] Digest V2003 Issue #453
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