Subject: [removed] Digest V01 #180
From: <[removed]@[removed]>
Date: 6/8/2001 7:23 AM
To: <[removed]@[removed];

------------------------------


                      The Old-Time Radio Digest!
                         Volume 01 : Issue 180
                   A Part of the [removed]!
                           ISSN: 1533-9289


                           Today's Topics:

 Re: Carl Amari's letter              ["Steve Wilson" <stevewilson46@hotma]
 Undocumented Scarlet Queen episode?  ["Doug Leary" <dleary@[removed];    ]
 Mr. Amari and His Letter             ["Donald B. Strong" <donsplace@earth]
 copyrights (not what you think)      ["Rodney w bowcock jr." <rodney-self]
 combined response                    [Joe Salerno <salernoj@[removed];  ]
 Re;  Directory                       ["Russ Butler" <oldradio@[removed]]
 Meredith Willson                     [Marklambert@[removed]                 ]
 Be Careful With Your Posts ! ! !     [TallPaulK@[removed]                  ]
 question for Hal                     ["Walden Hughes" <hughes1@[removed];]
 re: Mr. Amari's letter               ["J. Alec West" <Alec@[removed];]
 Re: Copyright Loophole               [Michael Biel <mbiel@[removed];       ]
 Breakfast In Hollywood film          [Michael Biel <mbiel@[removed];       ]
 USA TODAY article on OTR             [Jack A French <otrpiano@[removed]; ]
 Newspaper Listings                   [DBacca@[removed]                   ]
 CARL AMARI - OPEN LETTER             ["Ian Grieve" <ian@[removed]]
 Tomorrow the World                   ["igsjr@[removed]" <igsjr@[removed];  ]
 Copyrights                           ["A. Joseph Ross" <lawyer@[removed].]
 Copywrite: Does Carl own all that he ["Walter F. Johnsey, Sr." <wjohnsey@]
 Doris Day                            ["Walden Hughes" <hughes1@[removed];]
 More musings from Europe             ["Andrew Emmerson" <midshires@[removed]]
 From Skippy to Skip                  [Conrad Binyon <conradab@[removed]]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:53:55 -0400
From: "Steve Wilson" <stevewilson46@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Re: Carl Amari's letter

I wouldn't buy from Carl Amari. He has never shown that he owns the
copyrights he claims, therefore my purchase may actually be encouraging an
illegal operation.

It is amazing what businesses can get away with.

But then, we all know how trust worthy businessmen (particularly salesmen)
are.

Maybe someone else should claim ownership of a bunch of OTR series, and
challenge Carl Amari to a "you show me yours and I'll show you mine"
contest.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:16:26 -0400
From: "Doug Leary" <dleary@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  Undocumented Scarlet Queen episode?

In a recent Nostalgia Pages message a guy claims to have a Scarlet Queen
episode entitled, "King Ascot and the Maid in Waiting" that is not in Jerry
Haidig's logs. I contacted him but have not heard back yet. Has anybody else
run across this episode (or hoax) ??

The message is here:
[removed];i=45&t=45

Doug Leary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:36:33 -0400
From: "Donald B. Strong" <donsplace@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Mr. Amari and His Letter

[removed] seems to me that if Mr. Amari is unwilling to disclose what OTR
program he has exclusive rights to, other than those he mentioned in his
letter, then it is reasonable to assume that those are the only shows he
has exclusive rights to until or unless it is proven otherwise.

--

-- [removed] (donsplace@[removed])
"Prevent truth decay - study the Bible daily."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:18:30 -0400
From: "Rodney w bowcock jr." <rodney-selfhelpbikeco@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  copyrights (not what you think)

Carl Amari suggested that we do the research ourselves to find out who
owns the copyrights.  To that I say "[removed]"  I have no
problems doing some research to find things out.  After all, as I've said
before, I want to buy from the *right* people.  I won't build my
collection any other way.

But my question [removed] does one find this information?  Does it
just involve a few phone calls, or is there greater expense involved?

Rodney Bowcock

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 19:18:34 -0400
From: Joe Salerno <salernoj@[removed];
To: OTR List <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  combined response

That naughty old Rachmoninov.   He borrowed that famous old song,
"Dies Irae" from the 13th Century monk Thomas of Celano.   And look at all
the money that Rocky's "Symphonic Dances," which is a wonderful set of
theme
and variations of that old motiv, brings in!

Are you sure you are not confusing this with the Rhapsody on a Theme of
Paganini? He borrowed a theme from the violinist, got great results turning
it upside down, and threw in a little Dies Irae. Clever dude.

With digitization the storage is good up to a
point and then it falls down like a brick wall.  We've had CDs
for--what?  Only about 20 years. Who knows how long digitized CDs are going
to last?   Who knows what format is going to be next?"

Maybe DVDs.

I saw an add recently for a DVD maker extolling the fact that they use
organic dyes. My lunch, which I was eating at the time, caught in my throat.
Remember the last time someone used organic materials in open reel tape? 30
years later we are all dealing with ways to bake it and make it playable for
transfer.

Joe Salerno

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:13:43 -0400
From: "Russ Butler" <oldradio@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  Re;  Directory

Just one more copywrite posting:  Where would there be
a comprehensive and current directory or address list of
whom to contact to actually pay copywrite royalties?  The
few royalty pennies (or maybe dollars) per sale of OTR
cassettes and CD-R copies sold by dealers (I'm not one
of them) should go to someone. Any web addresses?
ASCAP and BMI have identifiable offices, fee schedules,
categories for music but specifically where are the OTR
royalty holders to mail payments or negotiate fees?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:46:21 -0400
From: Marklambert@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Meredith Willson

Can anyone fill me in on the details of Meredith Willson's
jobs as music director at NBC and his post with the
military radio network?  (Dates, job title, what he did,
what OTR shows he appeared on, etc.)   I'm passing
some stuff onto a guy writing about Willson, and he wants
to include info about Willson's OTR work.  Thanks for any
help.

--Mark
marklambert@[removed]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:46:41 -0400
From: TallPaulK@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Be Careful With Your Posts ! ! !

In Digest #176, Ryan O boldly states:

I own a copy of a radio documentary from 1975 on, Gunsmoke.  I also own a
copy of a documentary about The Shadow called, Voices From the Shadows

Ryan, you better hope that our buddy Carl doesn't find out that you OWN any
old time radio shows, or a cease and desist order will be in your mailbox.
;-)

Signing off until next time . . . . Paul Kattelman - Sharonville, Ohio
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The curtain never closes in the theater of the mind.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 20:54:49 -0400
From: "Walden Hughes" <hughes1@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  question for Hal

Hal, when you where traveling in a play, did you make local radio
appearances and act outs a scène from the play, in order to help sell
tickets at the theater?

Walden Hughes

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:14:04 -0400
From: "J. Alec West" <Alec@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  re: Mr. Amari's letter

Shawn Wolowicz wrote:

Cheers to Carl Amari for stating his case.  Regardless of what any of us
think about RSI, it's prices, or it's business practices, I think we all
need to recognize that Mr. Amari has the right to pursue his business and
it's interests.

Well, not all of us feel that way.  My own objection is not specifically about
Mr. Amari or Radio Spirits.  I object to the way our founding fathers' "intent"
for Copyright law has been perverted from 1909 forward -- and look upon those
subsequent Copyright acts in much the same way Bostonians must have felt about
the tax on tea prior to the Tea Party.  I suspect that some OTR fans feel as
though their public domain rights (yes, rights) have been stolen from them
courtesy of intense lobbying by vested interests (companies, corporations,
licenseers, estates, etc.) from 1909 on and that these fans feel impotent and
powerless against the big-money that now controls Copyright -- in much the same
way the Stationer's Guild did prior to England's Statute of Anne became law.
Suggestions like "Well, if you don't like the law, write your elected
representatives," are all well and good -- but only the most naive among us
believe we have any real power to effect change when more powerful financial
forces are brought to bear against us (and our viewpoints).

This leaves the OTR fan, website hobbyist, and independent vendor with only two
choices -- (1) respect a law that may be considered an unfair law, or (2)
exercise civil disobedience to protest the law ... at their own legal and
financial peril.

[removed]  In Mr. Amari's case, I can understand why he is unwilling to reveal the
licensing rights he controls.  It's not that he doesn't want us to know what he
controls -- it's that he doesn't want us to know what he "doesn't" control --
since he may be negotiating for those rights and would prefer not to have
competitors know about these negotiations (and potentially make the rights
holder a better offer).  Seems like a logical and sound business practice to
me.  Of course, the question that comes to mind is this -- just who are these
competitors -- the ones who have the financial ability to challenge an offer
made by the MediaBay giant?  I'd like to hear someone name just one of them
who'd be interested in the OTR niche.  And, if there are no such competitors,
it would leave me scratching my head.  The current Copyright Act is law.  But,
the Sherman Antitrust Act (barring monopolies) is also a law.

Regards,
J. Alec West

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:30:39 -0400
From: Michael Biel <mbiel@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Re: Copyright Loophole

From: "Owens Pomeroy" <opomeroy@[removed];
Correct me, again if I am wrong, as it has been sometime since I
read the copyright law, but -there are two words "for profit" in
there that would exempt from this law, non-profit OTR Clubs, and
private individuals ... as long as they do not make any monetary
gain from such a venture

You're wrong.  Those two magic words were in the old 1909 law but were
not included in the new law which has been in effect for the past 23
years.  It is why non-commercial radio stations have to pay performance
royalties just like commercial stations.

Michael Biel  mbiel@[removed]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:36:56 -0400
From: Michael Biel <mbiel@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Breakfast In Hollywood film

Since Owens and I were talking about our OTR film collections, here
coindicentially is a message that a friend of mine forwarded me.  If you
are in the Philadelphia area, this will be of interest.

Michael Biel  mbiel@[removed]

= =================================
The Secret Cinema presents free screening of
BREAKFAST IN HOLLYWOOD at Borders

Borders Book Shop  1727 Walnut Street, Philadelphia
(215) 568-7400

Friday, June 15  8:00 pm   free admission

The Secret Cinema will present a film screening at Borders Book Shop in
Center City Philadelphia on Friday, June 15, featuring the 1946 film
BREAKFAST IN HOLLYWOOD. Set in the movie-making capital in its bustling
heyday, the story is centered around a popular radio show of the day,
and
features several lively musical performances by The (Nat) King Cole
Trio,
Spike Jones and His City Slickers, and Andy Russell.

The screening starts at 7:30 pm and also includes unusual short films.
Admission is free, and seating is first-come, first-served.

All Secret Cinema presentations are projected in 16mm film on a giant
screen (not video).

A complete description of the feature follows.

Breakfast In Hollywood (1946, Dir: Harold Schuster)
This rarely-seen feature provides abundant views of two long-lost worlds
--
the bustling movie-making city in its mid-40s splendor, and the workings
of
a popular radio variety show from the pre-visual era of broadcasting.
The
film's story is centered around the "Breakfast In Hollywood" show, an
actual radio program hosted by easy-going, now-forgotten personality Tom
Breneman. Both show and host were very popular with housewives (back
when
most women WERE housewives), and featured performances with visiting
musical guests and amiable chats with the all-female studio audience --
who
would often wear outlandish hats in an effort to attract Tom's
attention.

The movie follows dramatic events in the lives of three different women
in
the audience, but also manages to include great musical scenes with The
King Cole Trio, Spike Jones and His City Slickers, and crooner Andy
Russell. Also seen are zany character actress Zasu Pitts as an eccentric
spinster, and gossip columnist Hedda Hopper as herself (albeit a
particularly angelic version of herself, going against type from the
spiteful hate-mongerer portrayed in HOLLYWOOD BABYLON). Other cast
members
include Bonita Granville (YOUTH RUNS WILD), Raymond Walburn
(MILLIONAIRES
IN PRISON) and the real-life mothers of Gary Cooper and Joan Crawford!

SECRET CINEMA WEBSITE: [removed]~jschwart

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:51:37 -0400
From: Jack A French <otrpiano@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  USA TODAY article on OTR

I was interviewed today by Aaron Berman, a Washington,DC journalist who is
working on a piece for USA TODAY on the influence of the Internet on the
OTR hobby. He asked me how the Internet had impacted on OTR clubs and I
gave examples from Metro Washington OTR Club. He is going to write about
re-creations and scripts that may be available on the Net. Berman did not
tell me how many other sources he would be contacting for this piece.

He expects the article to run within a week.

Jack French
Editor: RADIO RECALL

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 23:51:34 -0400
From: DBacca@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Newspaper Listings

I`ve been wondering about something someone might be able to answer. In
the original newspaper listings for the old radio shows, was the title
of the particular show or episode normally displayed, or just the name
of the program.  Thanks, Dan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:09:09 -0400
From: "Ian Grieve" <ian@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  CARL AMARI - OPEN LETTER

I have remained quiet on this discussion though I have had heated words on
the news group previously.

I don't HATE Carl Amari or Radio Spirits.  I don't begrudge them taking
people to court who are making money out of selling goods which are
copyrighted.  I have never bought any of their products not do I intend to
do so.  I enjoyed reading the letter and I noted that it was like previous
letters on the subject in that it didn't give any definitive answers.

I disagree with people who say that Carl Amari doesn't like OTR and is only
in it for the money, but I may be wrong, it is an impression I have from
reading a previous letter.

I disagree with Carl not showing that he does indeed have certain rights to
certain programs.  A previous anology with regard to a magazine receiving a
CEASE and DESIST order on unspecified articles explains the situation rather
well.  It is very difficult to take Carl seriously when he will not come out
and say I have ownership of ......... and I have an agreement to ........ .
I don't see this as protecting his interests.

Is Carl so unsure of his agreements or rights that he is scared to have them
tested by competition and so he has elected to deliberately keep the whole
issue muddied?

Really, it is not a matter of right or wrong.  It has come down to trust and
public perception.  Carl you are losing on both those areas.  You may well
have the rights you say you have and if so then you are in the right and
should protect your interests.  However, your methods and secrecy are
letting you down and public opinion (for those that have an opinion,
millions don't in this case) are against you because of you not ending the
matter and placing your rights on the table and putting an end to all
arguement.  I am not a legal person but it could well be argued against you
that you have deliberately caused the "Pirating" of OTR by your failure to
be open and honest and declare your rights.  I have never heard of any
business or individual who owns rights not showing those rights.  Failure to
do so simply make people believe that you are conducting a massive bluff and
behaving in a dishonest fashion whilst, in the meantime, trying to get those
rights.

Obviously my opinion doesn't effect you, nor you of me.  It is just time for
plain speaking, I cannot believe how many years you guys have been arguing
over this.  It could have been settled over a couple of beers years ago,
unless .....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:09:10 -0400
From: "igsjr@[removed]" <igsjr@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Tomorrow the World

Since the Radio Spirits topic is soon to become persona non grata, I
just thought I would take a quick moment to mention to those folks
discussing TOMORROW THE WORLD that Image Entertainment has released on
DVD the 1944 movie version directed by Leslie Fenton and starring
Fredric March, Betty Field, Agnes Moorehead and Skip (Skippy) Homier.
It retails for [removed], and I'm sure many online DVD stores offer it for
less.

Ivan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:09:18 -0400
From: "A. Joseph Ross" <lawyer@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Copyrights

Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:01:35 -0400
From: "Andrew Emmerson" <midshires@[removed];

a new copyright is created when material that
was previously out of copyright is re-packaged.

It is, provided there is original material created.  Re-issuing a public
domain program in a new box with a new cover design will copyright the
cover design and, perhaps, the total package, but it won't put the program
back under copyright.

If you're a musicician and write/perform a new arrangement of an 18th work,
your new version is copyright regardless whether other versions of the tune
is public domain.

That's true.  But the other versions, which are public domain, stay public
domain.  Once something goes into the public domain, it stays there for
all eternity.

If you produce a new illustrated book of nursery rhymes, that book is
copyright, regardless of the fact that every child can already recite those
rhymes.

And the rhymes also stay in public domain.

And if someone takes a public domain radio show, designs a new label for it
and perhaps adds some sleeve notes, however brief or uniformative, a new
copyright is created for _that particular version or issue_ and anyone who
then uses this 'pressing' to run off further copies is guilty of copyright
theft.

That is also true.  But the program itself remains in the public domain.
Anyone using another copy of the program to make copies may do so.

If someone publishes a copy of a public-domain radio show, for a new
copyright to be created, there must be enough original material to make it
a new work.  There's a grey area there.  It's not clear to me, at least
without doing research, whether a cassette jacket with artwork and liner
notes would be enough of a new work to create a new copyright in the whole
package.

 A. Joseph Ross, [removed]                        [removed]
 15 Court Square                     lawyer@[removed]
 Boston, MA 02108-2503      [removed]~lawyer/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:13:15 -0400
From: "Walter F. Johnsey, Sr." <wjohnsey@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  Copywrite: Does Carl own all that he says he
 does?

I have been lurking on the list for awhile now and
have not posted so if I make a mistake please forgive
me.

Carl has demonstrated what is great about this
country. If you have desire, and if you are determined
to work hard, play by the rules, and don't break the
law, you can go far, no matter what your age. That's
what our Republic is all about.

Yes, that is what the Republic is all about "fair
play" It seems to me that if the gentleman wants fair
play all he has to do is write a dealer and say that
he holds the copy write on such and such show epsoide
so and so and that would be it. Is it fair play to say
I own the copy write on the majority of otr shows and
leave it at that. If he takes the dealer to court he
would have to produce the copy write. The burden of
proof is on him, not the dealer. But of corse I'm just
an old Alabama Red Neck and don't know much, but I do
believe in fairs fair. What about it Carl? Take'em to
court, produce the evidence and you win! or are you
just bluffing and you actually do not own all of the
copy-writes that you lay claim to. Hummmmmmmmm I
wonder?
Walter From Red Neck Country and Proud of it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:13:18 -0400
From: "Walden Hughes" <hughes1@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  Doris Day

Dave Phaneuf requested information about my favorite singer Doris Day.  Some
on this list know I am close to the singer Kitty Kallen, but she for gives
me when I tell people that "Kitty," is my second favorite singer behind
Doris.  Doris Day was a staff singer for WLW, and in fact I have a small
piece of her alldishtion song for that station.  She was a singer for four
big bands.  They where  Jimmy James, Barnie Rapp, Bob Crosby, and tow stints
with Les Brown.  Between her two stints with Les Brown, Doris sang on the
show "Moon River." on WLW.  After Doris left Les in 1946. She was Jack
Kirkwood singer, and also sang with Sweeny and March.  She appeared with
Rudy Valee in 1947.  In the Fall of 1947 Frank Sinatra wanted Kitty Kallen
to become his female singer on the Your Hit Parade.  Kitty turn it down
because she was in the process of getting married, thus Doris Day was given
the big brake to sing on the Your Hit Parade.  Doris was Bob Hope singer in
1948 up to 6-18-50.  She was also making guest shots on the Railroad hour,
and Kraft Music Hall with Al Jolson.  Doris had her own show on CBS starting
on 3-28-52 and the show ended in 1954.  Doris live out side of Carmel
California on a 11 acre piece of land, and own an end in Carmel.  People can
meet her there because she does visit her hotel regularly.  I understand she
enjoy listening to conservative political talk radio, and I talked to her
publish about two month ago. My late friend Budd Granoff who was the agent
for 18 stars in the 1940s including Frank Sinatra, Martin, and Lewis, and
many big name singers.  Told me that both Doris Day, and Kitty Kallen  where
the only two singers that where not concern about becoming a star.

Walden Hughes

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:13:20 -0400
From: "Andrew Emmerson" <midshires@[removed];
To: <[removed]@[removed];
Subject:  More musings from Europe

Some quick comments:

Someone discovers an old transcription disk of this and
records from it.   All the wrappings of the package could be
 copyright, but not the original sounds.

True. BUT assuming for re-release the new publisher has spent time cleaning
up and editing the original recordings, these are no longer the original
sounds. They're different. And that's the whole [removed] this is what keeps
media lawyers in business if their clients suspect that someone has ripped
off their newly edited release of previously PD recordings. Here in Britain
there most definitely have been blatant rip-offs of rare WW2 recordings that
one company has retrieved from eastern Europe, cleaned up digitally and
issued on CD. Then another outfit comes along, claims these recordings are
out of copyright and issues digital clones of them.

my question is: where do i begin to find out if i can legally do this?

The only certain way is to employ a researcher who offers a legally binding
guarantee or indemnity that the copyright status information that he or she
provides you is totally watertight. And this will cost some serious money,
since many hours and days of work will be required.

  The reason I am mentioning this is that for twenty years or more I was
collecting and trading 16mm films and there was never a question from any of
the "powers that be" to stop what we were doing.

Lucky old you then! Here in Britain, inspectors from FACT (Federation
Against Copyright Theft) have visited several film fairs where these films
are traded,  pounced on dealers selling the films and impounded some of
those films. One guy selling prints of Disney films escaped a large fine or
prison sentence by the skin of his teeth.

The fact is that 90% of this trading is illegal. Plain and simple. You may
not like it but it is.

The only films that were ever >sold< were cartoons, movies and travelogues
intended for the public, either on 8mm or [removed] A few documentaries were
sold to schools and colleges on 16mm too.

All other films --- and this includes prints for educational and industrial
use, for showing in movie theatres or on board ships and aircraft, or for
transmission on television --- were >hired<... and they remain the  property
of their owners. The fact that film prints have slipped out of the system
over the years doesn't alter the fact that those prints still belong to the
studios that made them. They never sold them!

If someone now sells you one of these prints at a cine fair, it's stolen
property and if the real owner chooses to reclaim it, he can. Most of the
time they don't bother but Disney for one gets very proprietorial about its
property. That's why some dealers put little 'No rights given or implied'
stickers on their wares.

I'm not defending the rules, by the way, merely explaining them. I have
bought lots of old 16mm films and have never had any trouble. But I'm very
much aware of the reality of who really owns the prints. I suppose that if I
had to defend my personal right to own those prints, I'd have to prove they
were what the law terms 'res derelicta', property that the owner has
deliberately chosen to abandon. But how do I prove it when the chances are
that the print was filched by a projectionist 40 years ago?!?

Something to ponder about.

Andy Emmerson.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 09:13:22 -0400
From: Conrad Binyon <conradab@[removed];
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject:  From Skippy to Skip

......
After another 20 years or so of sporadic parts in occasional
movies and TV > ventures, Homeier retired to Palm Desert,
California and has refused interviews.

The following link is about Skip Homeier's first eleven years
of career commencing in the New York area.

[removed]

CAB
--
conradab@[removed] (Conrad A. Binyon)
   From the Home of the Stars who loved Ranches and Farms
     Encino, California.

--------------------------------
End of [removed] Digest V01 Issue #180
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