Subject: [removed] Digest V2002 #195
From: "OldRadio Mailing Lists" <[removed]@[removed];
Date: 5/31/2002 11:47 AM

To: <[removed]@[removed];

    ------------------------------

                                The Old-Time Radio Digest!
                                  Volume 2002 : Issue 195
                             A Part of the [removed]!
                                     ISSN: 1533-9289

                                     Today's Topics:

      Re: Something for Nothing?            [ Harlan Zinck <buster@[removed]; ]
      Re: bit rates                         [ DLMOLLISE@[removed] ]
      Mutual, WLW superpower                [ "Ed Ellers" <ed_ellers@[removed]; ]
      Re: Brand Loyalty                     [ John Mayer <mayer@[removed]; ]
      Re: OTR and Profits                   [ John Mayer <mayer@[removed]; ]
      Voices on radio & TV                  [ Herb Harrison <herbop@[removed] ]
      Old Book Shop, Morristown NJ          [ leemunsick@[removed] ]
      Singin' Sam and Dragnet Christmas     [ leemunsick@[removed] ]
      Hans Conreid's family?                [ bloodbleeds@[removed] ]
      Old ads and their effectiveness: GRA  [ "David W. Phaneuf" <otr_fan@[removed] ]
      Old ads and their effectiveness: GRA  [ "David W. Phaneuf" <otr_fan@[removed] ]
      Re: using old OTR advertised product  [ "Michael Ogden" <michaelo67@hotmail ]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:54:02 -0400
    From: Harlan Zinck <buster@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Re: Something for Nothing?

    Regarding free downloads and widespread distribution of radio programs,
    Eric Cooper makes a legitimate point when he writes:

>     There is something to be
>     said for folks like you and others who take time and effort and spend
>     money to preserve OTR. I salute you. But on the other hand there are a
>     lot more people who have been able to enjoy OTR thanks to wide
>     circulation via the internet, Media Bay , Barnes and Noble etc., for all
>     the good or evil those methods of circulation bring with them . OTR is
>     alive for a lot of people like me because of wide, low cost circulation
>     by whatever means.

    There's no question that the issue is a double-edged sword: free and easy
    on-line access to OTR has created new interest in old shows and there are
    those who would never have been introduced OTR were it not for the
    newsgroups, fan sites, and other Internet-related offerings. I also have no
    doubt that the majority of people who share shows or obtain their OTR
    collections this way have no intention of hurting anyone when they download
    and/or post shows between themselves. Fact is that, in most cases, the
    shows that are made available have been in general circulation for
    literally decades anyway and are far from rare. In addition, with a few
    exceptions, the sound quality of the average free download or MP3 is vastly
    inferior to the average cassette copy of a copy of a copy of a show.

    But a lot of people who've had contact with the most - ahem -
    "enthusiastic" members of the download-based community have detected a
    strong underlying attitude that *everything* should be made available to
    them for free and for unlimited distribution - and if it isn't available,
    it will be just as soon as someone gets hold of a copy. Previously unknown
    shows that do surface and are released in any fashion find their way to the
    'net within days - in many cases, hours - of their release. And this has
    made collectors who might otherwise make their collections available on a
    wider basis reconsider their options and lock up their disks.

    One person who contacted me off-list - a long-time enthusiast with a
    sizeable collection of really amazing stuff - wrote to say:

    "You can add me to that list of (once-again) frustrated collectors who
    would love to share my OTR treasures with the whole collecting fraternity,
    but reluctant to see them repeatedly pop up on eBay. In the meantime the
    deep pocket-types will just keep grabbing up all the goodies."

    This comes from a generous and gracious person who, despite his genial
    nature, has been repeatedly taken advantage of and will not soon be making
    any more of his unique and uncirculated shows available to anyone but his
    closest and most trusted associates. And when I say goodies, I'm talking
    about uncirculated episodes of some of the most sought-after shows in OTR
    history.

    On a related subject - the current high prices paid for disks and tapes at
    on-line auction sites - George writes:

>     But I guess the point that Im trying to make is another scenerio. That at
>     times, some of the higher prices are the results of dealers and the few
>     collectors who want to keep things to themselves, rather than those who want
>     others to enjoy the programs.  When people are bidding with the concept that
>     eveyone can enjoy it, there's no sense for bidding to go crazy on a couple
>     shows.  I dont think its fair to blame the trader for them.

    I don't blame any trader for the high prices being paid for disks these
    days - quite the opposite, actually. And I also don't blame any dealer who
    chooses to pay a sizeable sum for rare shows, then offers them for sale via
    his or her catalog. This is a perfectly legitimate way for a show to reach
    the ears of all of us at a fair price and in a timely manner.

    I also would not blame any individual who, having paid the price for some
    of these disks, then chose to make the shows available for trade - in fact,
    a fellow like Shawn Wells is to be praised for wanting to share what he
    has, simple for the sake of sharing it. (How long his wallet will hold out
    is another issue altogether… <g>)

    When the Archives first began over two years ago, we were fortunate to have
    someone in the organization willing to fund the purchase of many rare and
    uncirculated disks from both eBay auctions and from private individuals.
    The majority of the shows contained on these disks, once dubbed and
    restored, have been made available to our members and volunteers through
    our audio CD libraries for the incredibly low price of $[removed] per CD loan.
    That's fifty cents a show for programs that often cost the Archives between
    $[removed] and $[removed] each, shows the average enthusiast could not begin to
    afford on disk. And yet, like some other long-standing radio clubs and
    organizations, we often find ourselves struggling to pay the bills each
    month, wondering why more people don't recognize the quality and value we
    offer.

    Our friend Elizabeth, in her inimitably succinct and straightforward
    manner, summed it up best when she wrote:

>     …if someone posts Archives materials for free distribution By Any Means
>     Necessary -- every person who downloads them is a person who *won't* be
>     sending in membership dues or renting materials from the Library. And
>     eventually, if the Why Buy The Cow When You Can Get The Milk Thru The Fence
>     attitude builds up enough momentum, the revenue stream dries up completely
>     and the organization simply can't survive -- and a great many rare discs
>     don't get dubbed or distributed *at all.* It doesn't get any more basic
>     than that.

    Amen.

    Harlan

    Harlan Zinck
    First Generation Radio Archives
    [removed]

    PS: Kudos to Christopher Werner, whose "Economics of Preservation" posting
    presented an outstanding explanation of the costs of noble endeavors in the
    information age.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 09:54:23 -0400
    From: DLMOLLISE@[removed]
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Re: bit rates
    X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative
    X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain

    In a message dated 5/30/02 6:23:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
    [removed]@[removed] writes:

>     Recommendations that specify
>     not only brand names and model numbers but also

    I agree. This is a tough time for consumers -a lot to pick from and quite a
    bit of misleading info. Well, here are my experiences  - I have about 8,000
    shows on cd.
    these are MP3s with bit rates ranging from 16 (yeesh!) to 128. most are in
    mono(22).
    I have a number of players - the small Rio that uses flash cards and internal
    memory - works well but a pain to load all the time. I then got a Rio that
    plays cds encoded with mp3s - works great - all bit rates - no problems -  i
    use it in the car - a bit of trouble though -  and I run it through some of
    my radio replicas and it works great. However, most of my listening I do in
    the car - so I recently bit the bullet and bought a car cd player that
    handles MP3s. I bought it at Circuit City and took a few discs in to see how
    it would play different files. It is a JVC KD-SX980 - cost about $[removed]
    installed. Here are my experiences: For OTR you must have the facility for
    starting the disc in exactly the same place the next time you start  the car
    - as long as you haven't removed the disc it works flawlessly. It gives a
    readout of the show and date, etc. in the fairly large window. It has played
    all my discs from 16 to 256, both 22 and 44. I drive a Suzuki SUV and I have
    had no skipping problems at all. Regular cds sound good and at this point I
    feel very happy with the purchase - I've only had it about a month. I have
    collected for a number of years and have gone through reels, cassettes and
    even mini-discs. I use MP3s as a way to hear many shows. A good MP3 can sound
    very good. I still collect on CD and am happy to buy from dealers who offer a
    good sounding cd at a decent price. I very much enjoy the cd collections from
    Radio Spirits for instance. At any rate I read this digest often and really
    enjoy it. I only post if I feel I have something to offer and it seems that I
    have already travelled a road many are just going down. hope this was of some
    [removed]
    Danny Mollise

      *** This message was altered by the server, and may not appear ***
      ***                  as the sender intended.                   ***

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:04:12 -0400
    From: "Ed Ellers" <ed_ellers@[removed];
    To: <[removed]@[removed];
    Subject:  Mutual, WLW superpower

    William L Murtough <k2mfi@[removed]; wrote:

>     First in regard to Mutual. Many stations that were under contract with one
>     of the major networks (NBC-Red; NBC-Blue; and CBS) also subscribed to
>     Mutual, which was mutually owned by it's subscribers. WOR in New York was
>     the key station.

    I don't think this got going until later on.  There was a big stink when
    Mutual got the rights to the 1939 World Series, but CBS and NBC forbade many
    of their affiliates to pick it up, causing much of the country to miss the
    broadcasts; this led the FCC to stop networks from preventing their
    affiliates from taking programs from competing networks.  (This rule became
    especially important when network TV got going after World War II, as it
    enabled ABC -- and, to a lesser extent, Du Mont -- to place some shows in
    cities that had only one or two TV stations, a bottleneck that existed in
    some areas well into the 1960s.)

>     As to WLW operating at 500,000 watts, they were doing it illegally. They
>     were actually licensed to operate at that power only on an experimental
>     basis, meaning after midnight and non-commercial. However,they operated full
>     time at the power. For some unexplainable reason, the FCC ignored the
>     situation.

    This is the only time I've ever heard that, and frankly I don't believe it.
    Yes, Crosley did initially run the 500 kW rig under an experimental license
    (W8XO) from midnight-6 am.  But at least two sources say that the Federal
    Radio Commission granted special temporary authority on April 17, 1934 (just
    a few months before the FCC was created) for WLW to operate, *commercially
    and with its own call,* at 500 kW.  And President Roosevelt himself kicked
    things off on May 2 at 9:02 pm.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:04:46 -0400
    From: John Mayer <mayer@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Re: Brand Loyalty

    "Steven C. Thoburn" <scthoburn@[removed]; quoted the query:

     > How many people on this list are using products because they heard a
     > commercial on an old time radio program?

    Well, I'm still using Ovaltine. I haven't seen Lux Beauty Bars in a
    while, but I still occasionally pick up L-A-V-A. It's been a long time
    since I used any brand of soap flakes, though. And I still prefer the
    original Nabisco Shredded Wheat biscuits (though they are now owned by
    Post or somebody), though I'd like them still better if I could read the
    Injun-uity cards during breakfast.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:06:40 -0400
    From: John Mayer <mayer@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Re: OTR and Profits

    Christopher Werner <cwerner@[removed]; stated:

     > Unfortunately in a hobby that loves to re-interpret copyrights to
     > remove the guilt of [removed]

      Let's not forget that the hobby existed for years when no one cared
    about the copyrights or the programs themselves. Had lovers of the
    medium not committed technically illegal acts in preserving these shows,
    many of them would no longer exist for speculators to profit from.

     > Last year I had a similar [removed] they had come across a collection
     > of Harpers bound volumes from [removed] to 1901. My thoughts were "...
     > The contents of all these volumes should be published on the
     > [removed] the value of all the Harper's magazines would become
     > minimal. Who would buy them if they could be obtained for FREE?

    Surely all those works are now in the public domain, though you'd have
    to be careful how you used the Harper's name. In fact, public domain
    laws were established precisely so that the public could benefit from
    such works as you describe, once the original authors had gotten their
    due. Even if posting them on the internet would lessen the value of the
    actual volumes, there would be no injustice in that, and you would,
    indeed, be doing mankind a service. However, in all likelihood, the
    value of the originals would stay the same or might even increase due to
    increased public interest. This is, in fact, essentially what efforts
    such as The Guttenberg Project are attempting to do: to place as many of
    the great classics of literature as possible on the internet. You can be
    sure that finding Shakespeare's works on the internet will not diminish
    the value of a first folio of his original writings one whit; one does
    not buy rare books, as a rule, to read oneself to sleep by.

    Furthermore, I don't know about Harpers in particular but, by and large,
    magazine paper has a much higher acid content than that of books, since
    it has always been considered a disposable medium; it tends to
    self-destruct. Putting these volumes on the internet might conceivably
    save some important work that would otherwise have been lost forever.
    Much like what has occurred in the realm of OTR hobbyists.

    The analogy is not perfect, of course, since most OTR hobbyists are, in
    fact, interested in "reading copies," though of course most of us would
    be delighted to find an original transcription at our local Amvets. And
    I would certainly never consider undermining the work of an organization
    such as First Generation, which is working to preserve our radio
    heritage as a labor of love. I feel no such obligation to those who seek
    to control and limit programs that are only available to them due to the
    efforts of small time collectors and dealers whom they seek to
    disenfranchise.

    And I really have no objection to Radio Spirits enforcing lawful
    copyrights, especially if original performers and/or writers get some
    remuneration, however slight, from it. I, in fact, have purchased and
    enjoyed many of our own Mr. Tollins' collections, which I happily
    listened to while traveling. I just don't approve of the way the
    company, then under Mr. Amari, refused to clarify for the benefit of
    these collectors, exactly which shows they owned. Uncertain which shows
    they were required to "Cease and Desist" distributing, many dealers and
    website owners, most of whom were motivated primarily by a passion for
    the OTR art, abandoned their efforts. But, in all fairness, we should
    wait and see how Radio Spirits is run under the new management.

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 10:07:12 -0400
    From: Herb Harrison <herbop@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Voices on radio & TV

    "Ryan Hall" <pezman419@[removed]; writes:

>     Who you think had the most dynamic or distinctive radio voice? I
>     have always been interested in actors and actresses that just had the tone
>     of voice (and maybe its not really tone but diction or on air "presence")
>     that when you heard him or her, you just sort of went [removed] a great
>     voice.

    Good question.
    I'll add another question:
    We've all heard of handsome/beautiful silent-movie stars whose careers nose
    dived after "talkies" came in, when their real speaking voices couldn't
    match their audiences' expectations (like John Gilbert)...
    Which successful radio actors, whose voices created impressive "visual
    impressions" of their characters in listeners' minds, did not make the
    transition to television because they were ugly or fat, or otherwise
    objectionable?
    (Of course Raymond Burr did, as did William Conrad (who was fat - but he
    had *that voice*); and the guy who played the barber in [removed] I
    couldn't STAND that guy on TV!)
    Any comments?

    Herb Harrison

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 12:52:43 -0400
    From: leemunsick@[removed]
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Old Book Shop, Morristown NJ

    Many readers know that I lived around Morristown NJ for nearly all my life,
    until my wife Charlotte and I moved to Appomattox in southern Virginia, two
    years ago next week.  Before anybody asks, We love it!

    I was a frequent shopper in the Old Book Shop in both its old and new
    locations.  Naturally, when I needed some books after our move, I called
    proprietor Chris in Morristown.

    I was stunned to find that he will not mail books to anyone.  I believe he
    also does not take credit cards.  Nearly as strange as the former owner
    from whom he purchased the store.  I was frequently told (have no way of
    knowing the veracity of this) that the original old codger was a member -
    perhaps even the leader - of the local Communist cell.  Small towns have a
    way of generating fascinating rumors.

    So the point of this message is to thank friend Derek Tague for his
    suggestion, but to inform you good folk that if you want to buy books from
    the fine little shop in Morristown, you'll have to go there - it's strictly
    cash and carry.

    Lee Munsick - former Morristonian

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:32:03 -0400
    From: leemunsick@[removed]
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Singin' Sam and Dragnet Christmas

    Derek Tague made the following reference in his posting:

>     Eric J, Cooper wrote how he finds himself being partial toward OTR-era
>     advertised products. I know how he feels: the only reason I've ever bought
>     Barbasol shaving cream was because of Singing Sam, the Barbasol Man.

    I don't know for how long or how often, but at one point Arthur Godfrey
    became "Singin' Sam" , either substituting for or succeeding Harry
    Frankel.  Their voices were remarkably similar, especially while singing.

    I'd like to collect any of these programs with Arthur Godfrey.  Any help to
    this end will be most appreciated.  By the way, before someone posts the
    question, Barbasol is still on the market.

    Derek also added to the recent thread about Dragnet, and its traditional
    Christmas programs which started on radio, and continued each year on TV.

    Some years ago, attending an after-session party at FOTR, I found myself
    sitting on a sofa, chatting with one of the guests, new that year to
    FOTR.  He mentioned that he had done a lot of Dragnet shows.  I had no idea
    who he was, but certainly recognized his voice, 'though at that moment I
    couldn't match it to a name.  I told him that my favorite Dragnets were the
    Christmas story.  I had always admired the script, and the actor who played
    the priest every year.  "That was me", said my newfound friend.  I got up
    and looked at him from the front, and promptly turned red.  I apologized
    profusely, saying I just did not realize I was talking with Harry
    Bartell!  He said, "Don't be sorry, it happens all the time.  I'm pleased
    that you remembered those programs, and especially recalled the
    priest!"  Now I had two reasons to truly recall that personage!

    On another occasion, I did the same dumb thing.  Found myself sitting next
    to several of the people from the cast of the "War of the Worlds"
    short-lived TV series.  This was in 1988, when there were a commemorative
    fair, parade and conference in New Jersey, celebrating the 50th anniversary
    of the Orson Welles WOTW program.  You may have heard of that forgotten
    program.

    The celebration was held in West Windsor Township, supposedly the scene
    where the Martian ship landed.  Speaking with the attractive young gal next
    to me about the events around us, she said she was involved in the Canadian
    production of the TV series.  Again, I had to look at her face straight-on
    to realize this was the female lead in the program.  Next to her was the
    hero of the stories, which I had been watching every installment!

    Moral:  Either film watchers such as myself didn't pay much attention to
    the profiles of film actors, or directors didn't unless the star happened
    to be Jean Arthur or John Barrymore.  Next time I must remember to find a
    seat across the table from actors!  Real OTR men don't blush!

    All the best to you Singin' Sam and War of the Worlds fans!

    Lee Munsick - Appomattox County, Virginia USA

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:33:05 -0400
    From: bloodbleeds@[removed]
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Hans Conreid's family?

    Hi. Can anyone give me a lead on the whereabouts of family of Hans Conreid?
    I'd like to get
    in touch about a project I'm working on. Thanks.

    Ben Ohmart

    The Great Gildersleeve book
    [removed]

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:33:23 -0400
    From: "David W. Phaneuf" <otr_fan@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Old ads and their effectiveness:  GRAPENUTS

    Try Grapenuts hot with some sugar or honey! Totally different experience!
    Then maybe you can be faithful to the ads!

    By the way, I started using PRELL again because of the Life of Riley ads!
    Couldn't get that jingle out of my mind: "P-R-E-L-L Prell Shampoo."    And
    you know, it's not as harsh as everybody says.  However, I am noticing more
    light reflecting from the top of my head when I'm shaving! lol

    -- Dave Phaneuf

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:33:53 -0400
    From: "David W. Phaneuf" <otr_fan@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Old ads and their effectiveness:  GRAPENUTS
     again

    OOOPS!  that last post was in response to Linda T's comment that

> >     However, I am NOT tempted by the program's ads for [removed]

    -- Dave Phaneuf

    ------------------------------

    Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 13:34:22 -0400
    From: "Michael Ogden" <michaelo67@[removed];
    To: [removed]@[removed]
    Subject:  Re: using old OTR advertised products

    How's this for belated product support? Even though it's more expensive than
    Maxwell House or Folgers, I regularly buy Joseph Martinson Coffee, simply
    because they briefly sponsored THE WITCH'S TALE in the fall of 1935.

    Speaking of coffee, I guess if it were still around, I'd also be drinking
    the George Washington brand. Even though only one SHERLOCK HOLMES episode
    circulates from the era of their sponsorship, the lure of the product is
    irresistable when you hear Dr. Watson (Leigh Lovell) and Joseph Bell
    delighting in their steaming cups by the fireside before plunging into
    another adventure of the Great Detective.

    Mike Ogden

    --------------------------------
    End of [removed] Digest V2002 Issue #195
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