
 SEE INFO SECTION AT END OF THIS DIGEST FOR UNSUBSCRIBE AND OTHER INFORMATION. 
	  	         === Last Update 1/17/95  ====





	    [removed]   Volume 96 : Issue 244


Articles in this issue of [removed]:

	 Re: Wholesome Radio
	 Ken Greenwald's ETs
	 Stan Freberg, Harlan Ellison, Tom Snyder OTR
	 oops
	 What Atlanta OTR?
	 Corwin
	 Re: 13 By Corwin
	 Re: books for sale
	 Re: books for sale
	 re: "Enough already"
	 FOREHEAD SLAPPPING MOMENT OF INSIGHT
	 Himan Brown; Inner Sanctum; CBS Mystery Theater
	 OTR

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 03:42:44 -0500
From: usrtest <usrtest@[removed]>
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: Wholesome Radio
Message-ID: <[removed]@[removed]>

Steven Capsuto, Philadelphia
stevecap@[removed]
WEB page: [removed]~[removed] said:

Bob Burnam quoth:

>>I think the thing about classic radio shows that shouldn't be overlooked is
>>that it promoted wholesome family values,
 
>the media defined "family values" very narrowly.  Family
>meant Mom, Dad, Junior and Sis, who all celebrated Christmas and were >almost always white. 

>Replies to this posting will surely bandy about the phrases "historical
>context"

One doesn't usually speak of "bandying about" simple statements of fact.  to 
criticize OTR for not displaying 90's sensibilities is like mocking the 
early settlers for taking months to cross the continent.  "My God, they 
could have flown it in hours!"  And, hey, how about those irresponsible 
cigarette commercials?!  

>Radio's "wholesomeness" also meant removing anything resembling social
>criticism from most commercial dramas

I'm frequently struck by how timely some references are in OTR; 
generally points are made much more subtly, though.  One episode of, I 
think, *Escape* titled the "The Savage" shows the moral and intellectual 
superiority of an "ignorant" aborigine over the white men who scorned 
him.  Many old sci-fi shows contained thinly veiled social messages.  I'm 
sure others in Radio Land can think of many examples of social criticism 
on OTR.  

>It meant that LUX RADIO THEATER felt the need to rewrite SHOW BOAT
>so that -- instead of criticizing racist laws of the old South ...

>"Doing the scene as written would have offended white listeners in the
>South," someone will surely reply.  Well, what about offending African
>Americans, Latinos, Arab Americans, Native Americans and everyone else  >stereotyped 

How about the frequent stereotyping of white Southerners?  The first two 
abolitionist newspapers were published in my native Tennessee.  The 
largest Ku Klux Klan rally ever held, in 1925 in [removed], numbered 40,000.  
Ninety percent were from the North.  The largest contingent came from 
your state, Pennsylvania. 

>These groups, too, are part of the historical context, as are married >women who chose to make careers for themselves rather than be >homemakers -- another group that radio pretended didn't exist.

Well, you, yourself, mentioned career woman *Our Miss Brooks.*
I best remember children's shows, but I believe Helen Trent had a career.
I seem to recall Ma Perkins owned a lumber yard.  My Friend Irma was a 
working girl.  There were many female detectives (can't recall the names 
of the shows, but Verna Mae Grovener's NPR show *Horizons* did a 
program on them).
 
>there's something to be said for the freedom that the media enjoy today in
>presenting many types of lives

Yes, not only cops but also lawyers and doctors.

>and addressing many viewpoints.  The downside is that this freedom leaves >the door open for hatemongers

Another downside is that real humor has been replaced by insult, invective 
and scatology.  Today's humor shows such as Saturday Night Live and Mad 
TV manage to be tasteless without being funny (love *The Simpsons*, 
though).

>Re: the high quality of the OTR shows we collect and [removed]
>Then, as now, there was a lot of schlock

Well, sure, that's Sturgeon's Law: "Ninety-five percent of everything is 
crud."  The difference is today we seem to have TV shows written by people 
whose only inspiration seems to have been other TY shows.  Our crud 
quotient seems to be creeping toward 100%.  We all know of consistently 
great OTR series and a number of classic individual episodes ("Sorry, 
Wrong Number," for example).  How many truly great network TV shows 
can you think of in the last decade.  The first *Lonesome Dove" miniseries.
Any others? 
___
Steven Capsuto, Philadelphia
stevecap@[removed]
WEB page: [removed]~[removed]


Dick Lupoff  Bigkids@[removed] said:

>I think the "family values" promoted by OTR were the same family values
>expressed by Norman Rockwell covers for the Saturday Evening Post. >Everything was swell and everybody was happy in this the greatest human >society ever contrived 

Not surprising that a nation in the throes of, or recovering from, the 
horrors of WW II would seek escape in light-hearted, optimistic 
entertainment.  Yet there was much bleak cynicism.  Listen to *Gunsmoke* 
much?  Many of the detective shows had a definite noir feel.  Several of the 
afore-mentioned sci-fi shows predicted grim things for mankind.  Many of 
the suspense and horror shows were full of evil men and women who didn't 
always get their just deserts.
 
>It was also a good idea to stick to your assigned role in life: Papa as >breadwinner, Mama as homemaker, Missy and Bub as good little >apprentice adults in training to take their own places as breadwinners and >homemakers in later [removed] anyone who deviated from that norm -- >was in trouble. 

Hadn't thought about this before, but many - maybe even most - of the lead 
characters in radio series were, in fact, in non-traditional family 
situations.  Jack Benny (in his radio persona) was unmarried.  So was 
Throckmorton P. Gildersleeve.  So were Lamont Cranston and Margo Lane.  
So were Bogart and Bacall in *Bold Venture*.  The Lone Ranger and Tonto.  
The Cisco Kid and Pancho.  Sgt. Preston.  All the detectives.  All defying the 
conventions of the day.    

>Some deviations were less unacceptable than others. Catholics
>were "almost" as good as Protestants. Jews were not "as good as" either.

Don't have any idea what you're basing this assessment of radio prejudice 
on.  I always sort of assumed the Cisco Kid was Catholic (though it was 
never stated).  The only overtly Jewish characters I can remember were 
comic, but no more so than the other ensemble characters; Mr. Kitzel from 
Jack Benny (and Abbott and Costello) and Mrs. Nussbaum from Allen's 
Alley (Say, that Senator Claghorn: was Fred Allen pokin' fun [removed] at 
Southerners?!).  Certainly it was common knowledge that Baby Snooks was 
Jewish.   

>Asians were "almost" as good as whites, 

Well, I believe this was a matter of playing to the demographics; there 
weren't a lot of oriental lead characters, but it was clear that The Green 
Hornet could not have fought crime without Kato (though Kato did change 
nationalities after Pearl Harbor from Jap to Filipino).  And wasn't Charlie 
Chan on radio for a while?

>Japanese were cute little cultured miniature people. After Pearl Harbor, >... "Japs" or "Nips" were snarling, subhuman beasts.

Yeah, of course, but have you ever seen how the Japanese are portrayed in 
(speaking of Kato) Bruce Lee's Hong Kong Kung Fu movies?

>As for [removed] Native [removed] gay [removed] disabled people, etc.,

Mr. Rudesill pointed out that Native Americans came off pretty well; there 
were plenty of heroic Indians on the air.  Believe Staraight Arrow was 
actually a white man, but he had been raised as an Indian and respected 
Indian ways.

We could start a whole thread about whether *Amos and Andy* did Black 
people more harm than good, but the show brought African Americans 
(Okay, they weren't really African-Americans, but in our minds' eyes 
they were) into the homes of all Americans and we learned to love them.  
When Andy was contemplating marriage he got hundreds of thousands of 
letters of advice from Americans of all races.  Of course, they were made 
fun of; it was a comedy.  Were they really any sillier than Chester Riley or 
Archy, the manager of Duffy's tavern?

Bruce Rudesill <lranger@[removed]> said:

>Actually it sounds more like Steve Capsuto is trying to start something.
>attempt to apply 90s values to a totally different era. Blacks accounted for
>less than ten percent of the population, homosexuals then, as now, were
>less than four percent, there were not hordes of illegitimate children
>then, divorce was not a popular pastime 

No, but there were hordes of abused children.  And it's my impression the 
percentage of blacks in our population hasn't changed much (too late at 
night to research it; anybody got figures?).

>Indians most certainly weren't ignored. Tonto was around for three >decades. Straight Arrow had his own show and today has a very active fan >club. Not bad for a program with only about five surviving shows.

And there was Harkah (?) from the B-Bar-B ranch.  And anybody 
remember *The Silver Eagle* (if so, who played Joe BeDough?  Could he 
be The voice of Little Ceasar's and Thompson's Water Seal?)?  

>There's more than one downside to today's broadcasting freedom. And it's
>not just hate mongers who broadcast "half-truths, lies and innuendo", we
>have a president who does it all the time. 

All the time?  Examples?  And how about "Iran-Contra?  I never heard of 
Iran.  Or Contra either. "?  Or "Read [removed]"  Never mind; let's not get 
started.

>We're also stuck with foul language,

I agree; I'm no prude but a little more decorum would be nice. 

>promiscuous sex, 

Ever listen to any of those detective shows?  A pretty promiscuous bunch 
of  guys.

>gratuitous violence 

Give a listen to some *Shadow* episodes.  Burning  a man's face off while 
he was conscious, whole villages wiped out.  Pretty grim stuff.  And some of 
those horror shows!  They didn't call it horror for nothing.  

>the repulsive specatacle of homosexual marriage.

What, you'd rather homosexuals were promiscuous?

>As to the drivel accusation. Of course it existed then. However there are
>a lot more shows remembered from then there will be TV shows from the >90s.  The same is true for the movies. People will still be watching "The >Wizard of Oz" long after Bruce Willis is nothing but an answer to a trivia >quiz.

Couldn't agree with you more.  Especially about Bruce Willis.  Besides, 
he's a Republican.

Bob Burnham; BRC Productions; Platecap@[removed] said:

>In answer to Steven Capsuto's wondering about my motivation behind my
>comments about family values on [removed]

>> Are you just trying to start a lively discussion or are you
>> serious?  Or both?  

>Actually it it was a tongue in cheek response 

Now you tell us.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:28:56 GMT
From: Cameron Hughes <1yardbird@[removed]>
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Ken Greenwald's ETs
Message-Id: <[removed]@[removed]>

I just wanted to post a quick initial impression of the demo tape I received
this week from Ken.  Not to further fan the flames of the
what-constitutes-Hi-Fi debate, let me just say that if better sound can be
gotten from OTR ETs, I've never heard it.  Aside from the mild surface noise
of the original discs, these transfers are surprisingly clean, detailed, and
full-range.  It almost sounds like you're eavesdropping on a recording
session rather than hearing an OTR production because you can hear
everything, even actors trying to keep quiet in the background.  There's a
lot of life in those grooves.  (And Ken, if you're reading this, I'll be
writing you soon asking you what tricks you pulled off to get this sound.)
I especially enjoyed the two-minute demo in which Ken plays three stages of
the transferred sound, the first being an undoctored initial playing and the
third being the final cleaned up version.  Very impressive.

Congratulations, Ken.  I'm looking forward to getting more recordings from
you and I heartily recommend your work.  It's nice to see what can be done
when a person really loves they're work.


     ********************** Cameron Hughes **********************
     **************** 1yardbird@[removed] ****************
     ********************* Carpe diem, baby *********************
     ************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 09:22:12 -0400
From: Tom Kleinschmidt <tomkle@[removed]>
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Stan Freberg, Harlan Ellison, Tom Snyder OTR
Message-Id: <[removed]@[removed]>

Hello All,

        This is not strictly, OTR, but very OTR related. For the second time
in a week I have awoken late at night to catch some OTR related stuff on THE
LATE LATE SHOW WITH TOM SNYDER. I'm hoping someone might have taped either
of these two shows. Neither was listed in the TV Guide, so I had no idea
that either one was coming. Last night Stan Freberg was on discussing the
release of volume 2 of The United States Of America: The Middle Years. I
only caught the last 10 minutes when Stan was shamelessly plugging the CD
and taking a few phone calls.
        The other show was last week with writer Harlan Ellison. Again I
caught only the last 10 or 15 minutes and he discussed a story he wrote
called :"Free with this box" in which he describes listening to the PEP
commercials on SUPERMAN and trying to collect all the cards or coins or
whatever premium was being offfered. He finally resorts to stealing the
things out of the boxes in the grocery store because he realizes he'll never
get a complete set any other way. He did get caught and had his first
experiences with the police at that young age. He went on to discuss sending
away for some of the Captain Midnight premiums and listening to Terry and
The Pirates. 
        As I was paging through the Movies Unlimited catalogue the other
day, I came across a tape with an Unsold 15 minute TV Pilot for VIC'n'SADE
with the stars from the radio show. Has anyone seen this and is it any good?
If anyone can help me with video copies of any of the above, please email
me, I have lots to trade.
        Finally, the new Cololector's Choice Music catalogue lists a new set
of The Stan Freberg Show presented by The Smithsonian. Has anyone purchased
this yet? It mentions in the catalogue that it contains 7 episodes from the
series, but that's all it describes.
        Thanks.


Tom

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 96 09:32:00 -0400
From: amo@[removed]
To: otr@[removed]
Subject: oops
Message-Id: <[removed]@[removed]>

In my posting yesterday I asked about a schedule for Radio
Yesteryear.  I'm suffering from muscle spasms at the present,
but I think perhaps a brain cramp caused me to write that.
I meant a schedule for Yesterday USA, the otr radio channel
on satellite.

Also, does anyone have a copy of the pilot show for Have Gun,
Will Travel?  I have a large collection and would be willing
to trade something for a copy.

Arlene Osborne amosborne@[removed]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 21:04:17 -0400
From: [removed]@[removed]
To: otr@[removed]
Subject: What Atlanta OTR?
Message-ID: <[removed]@[removed]>

This is the first message I've posted since switching Internet
providers, and it's always an adventure with the gateways they carry on
these local BBSs, so if you can read this, congratulations.

While no one would love better than I the opportunity of providing
solace to the Atlanta subscriber looking for OTR here, I regretfully can
furnish none.  Mr. Rayburn, does your company's business plan provide
for buying one of our high-end-of-the-AM-dial thousand-watters and
saturating it with those thrilling days of you-know-when?  If so, I know
several folks in these h'yer parts who would probably move in from the
suburbs just so they could pick it up.

Since we're kind of over our heads with the Olympics right about now, I
wonder if anyone has any OTR coverage of the Olympics from years past.
Particularly fascinating to me would be finding out how the major
networks handled reportage of the 1936 Berlin Games.  Since these took
place before the 1938 Austrian Anschluss, I doubt there was any live
on-the-spot coverage, or was there?  I'd love to hear what anybody knows
or can find out about any of this.

Scott
[removed]@[removed]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 22:03:10 -0500
From: hhoward@[removed] (Henry Howard)
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Corwin
Message-Id: <[removed]@[removed]>

You can find ordering information and other programs from Norman Corwin at
Lodestone Productions.
[removed]~lodeston/
+++++ Henry Howard == The Atlanta Radio Theatre Company +++++
+++++    [removed]   or/artc /audiocraft     +++++
+++++               Produced at Audio Craft  (770) 923-7955
+++++
======================================================= (2)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 08:31:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Gediman <danged@[removed]>
To: [removed]@[removed]
cc: otr@[removed]
Subject: Re: 13 By Corwin
Message-ID: <[removed]@well>

#1, the preferred method of getting high quality tapes of the 13 By 
Corwin series (preferred, that is, by Mr. Corwin, still very much alive 
and kicking and working on new radio dramas that will debut on NPR this 
fall) is calling 800-411-MIND.

As far as a run-down of the series, I suggest you check out the web site 
at [removed], the people distributing the series on 
cassette. If you don't have web access, let me know and I will re-post 
the whole listings here.

#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#
# Dan Gediman                           #
# Independent Public Radio Producer     #
# [removed] (phone) [removed] (fax)   #
# danged@[removed] (email)               #
#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#+#
                    

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:20:02 4
From: "edcarr" <edcarr@[removed]>
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: books for sale
Message-Id: <[removed]@[removed]>

the folowing books are for sale
only i each of
gunsmoke, a complete history (sold for $75)
   my price $50 plus postage no d/j

in the nick of time,motion picture sound
 serials by wm c cline (sold for $35 my
price $20 plus post no d/j

everybody loves somebody sometime
story of dean martin jerry lewis
$12 plus post

if interested will take orders on
amos n' andy story------$15
best seat in the house--$15
empire builders---------$15
need info email me only
                             edcarr@[removed]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 11:20:44 4
From: "edcarr" <edcarr@[removed]>
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: Re: books for sale
Message-Id: <[removed]@[removed]>

the folowing books are for sale
only i each of
gunsmoke, a complete history (sold for $75)
   my price $50 plus postage no d/j

in the nick of time,motion picture sound
 serials by wm c cline (sold for $35 my
price $20 plus post no d/j

everybody loves somebody sometime
story of dean martin jerry lewis
$12 plus post

if interested will take orders on
amos n' andy story------$15
best seat in the house--$15
empire builders---------$15
need info email me only
                             edcarr@[removed]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:15:03 -0400
From: stevecap@[removed] (Steven Capsuto)
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: re: "Enough already"
Message-Id: <[removed]@[removed]>

>respectfully suggest that this debate over whether or not OTR was 
>an accurate mirror of the times, and/or whether modern radio is 
>better or worse, tends to ebb and flow like the tide, and please 
>let's let the tide go out again for a while. I rather doubt that 
>the parties on the "other" side of the issue, whichever side you 
>think that is, are likely to have a forehead-slapping moment of 
>insight and realize that you have been right all along, so perhaps 

Leaving aside the few out-and-out "flame" posts the dialog has generated, I
for one have enjoyed reading the divergent views on this subject --
particularly from people who lived through the era and have described the
role that radio played in their lives during the Depression, WWII, etc.

>we can get back to the usual topics now.

I thought you were lamenting that this *is* one of the usual [removed] <g>
___
Steven Capsuto, Philadelphia
stevecap@[removed]
WEB page: [removed]~[removed]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 1996 12:24:45 -0400
From: Bigkids@[removed]
To: [removed]@[removed]
Subject: FOREHEAD SLAPPPING MOMENT OF INSIGHT
Message-ID: <960711122444_153714693@[removed]>

Yes, the folks who object to turning the Digest into a forum for political
debate are probably right. And a tip of the Hatlo hat (remember the
reference?) to Andrew Green for a brilliant turn of phrase. "Making the
rubble bounce." Is that original, or borrowed? Anyway, the creator of the
image has my awed admiration.

But in fact, I _did_ have a "forehead slapping moment of insight" when I read
Andrew Green's mini-essay on OTR as idealized fantasy. I'm really embarrassed
that I needed to have that pointed out to me, since I write fiction for a
living and have published some thirty-plus novels in the past several
[removed] plus uncounted short stories, comic strips, a couple of movies,
and even an audio drama or two of my own.

And of course they are _all_ fantasies, of one degree or another, and of one
sort of another. Problem is, I try to base all my stories on assorted
insights into human nature and the human condition. But they are _still_
fantasies.

Okay. So much for the pollyanna aspect of OTR. But I can't help regretting
the ethnic stereotypes, the caricatures and fun-making of people who happened
_not_ to fit the accepted norms (such as fat jokes, stammer jokes, etc.), and
so forth. Not that such things were unique to OTR, or that OTR was the worst
offender. Look at the comic books of the 1940s and 50s!

So, now I'll shut up on this matter, at least for a while. But please note
that this can be a discussion of the aesthetics and content of OTR material,
without degenerating into a name-calling political bash. For heaven's sake,
let's avoid the latter!

Dick Lupoff

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 11:25:43 CDT
From: serag@[removed] (Sera_Gene)
To: otr@[removed]
Subject: Himan Brown; Inner Sanctum; CBS Mystery Theater
Message-Id: <[removed]@[removed]>

I had posted in the past my interest in obtaining tapes or transcripts concerning CBSRMT.  I really appreciate the input on this subject.  Thanks to subscribers of this list I have discovered that an optimal way to obtain recordings is to join a club.  Can anyone please forward me info on clubs that would have material by Mr. Brown(Inner Sanctum and CBSRMT)?  Thanks to JRayb71827@[removed] for enlightening us on Inner Sanctum and its relation to Himan Brown.   I am greatly appreciative for any input.  Once again thank you.

Gene

serag@[removed]

------------------------------

Date: 11 Jul 96 15:15:51 EDT
From: Dan Prather <[removed]@[removed]>
To: OTR <[removed]@[removed]>
Subject: OTR
Message-ID: <[removed]@[removed]>

"I check every once in a while to see what is happening in OTR.  I read the
announcement that YUSA has a new dj.  I have listened to the station a
couple of times on the Internet and I am not sure what the big deal is and
why it is in this group.  I have listened through the Internet to the
station over the last month or so.  Half of the time when I connected all I
heard was music shows.  Music is ok but I wanted to hear old time radio
shows when I connected.  I can get the music I want on any radio all day
long.  When I got an old time radio show it was someone playing a show that
they wanted to sell through their company.  I know that there has to be
commercials, after all nothing is free, but when they tease me with a show
or an episode of a show and to hear any more I have to send money is when I
draw the line.  Kind of like radio infomercial.  Then they ask me to send
money to pay for the station.  They are going to have to be an real OTR
station before I will think about it."

------------------------------

    


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---- 
End of [removed] Digest V96 Issue #244

